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iPlayer HLG/UHD HDR on Samsung’s J and K Series TVs

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Voyager

@chopples123 wrote:

@blenky wrote:


Which external device were you using when you performed this test, and was there a noticeable difference when you compared the same HLG content via the internal apps vs an external device?

 

I ask because I've been able to get HLG via HDMI from my M9500 player for several months now, and playing the same HLG content from the TV's internal app and the M9500 player, the content looks identical.

 

I'm nearly 100% confident that the problem lies with whatever external device you are using.


 

I'm confused.  Do you have a KS\JS TV?  One of the main issues on this thread is that no device connected via HDMI can pass HLG (exception being Roku+ or using HDFury).


@UHDHDR shown HLG being passed to 2016 sets earlier in the year

 

link to discussion at the time

 

https://eu.community.samsung.com/t5/TV-Audio-Video/iPlayer-HLG-UHD-HDR-on-Samsung-s-J-and-K-Series-T...

 

cheers


OK I see - thanks.

Black Belt 

@blenky wrote:


Which external device were you using when you performed this test, and was there a noticeable difference when you compared the same HLG content via the internal apps vs an external device?

 

I ask because I've been able to get HLG via HDMI from my M9500 player for several months now, and playing the same HLG content from the TV's internal app and the M9500 player, the content looks identical.

 

I'm nearly 100% confident that the problem lies with whatever external device you are using.


 

I'm confused.  Do you have a KS\JS TV?  One of the main issues on this thread is that no device connected via HDMI can pass HLG (exception being Roku+ or using HDFury).



@blenky wrote:


Which external device were you using when you performed this test, and was there a noticeable difference when you compared the same HLG content via the internal apps vs an external device?

 

I ask because I've been able to get HLG via HDMI from my M9500 player for several months now, and playing the same HLG content from the TV's internal app and the M9500 player, the content looks identical.

 

I'm nearly 100% confident that the problem lies with whatever external device you are using.


 

I'm confused.  Do you have a KS\JS TV?  One of the main issues on this thread is that no device connected via HDMI can pass HLG (exception being Roku+ or using HDFury).


It sounds similar to when our Italian friend said he could get HLG via a Satiliete set box when we all know that was not possible

Voyager

Q@UHDHDR wrote:

@tarbat wrote:

@tarbat wrote:
Has anyone with this new firmware actually tested some HLG calibration test content to measure whether the luminance response curve matches the correct HLG EOTF curve? If so, what was the maximum NITS measured on a 10% window at 100% luminence? On the old non-HLG firmware, the maximum was less than 500 NITS, so nowhere near the maximum luminance the TV is capable of.

Until someone does that, we have no idea if this test firmware completely fixes the HLG problem on KS TVs.

And here's the calibration chart I posted back in June demonstrating just how wrong the HLG EOTF curve is on the current firmware. If someone with the new test firmware can perform the same tests, that will prove that HLG is genuinely fixed beyond just the EDID fix.

 

1.jpg


Which external device were you using when you performed this test, and was there a noticeable difference when you compared the same HLG content via the internal apps vs an external device?

 

I ask because I've been able to get HLG via HDMI from my M9500 player for several months now, and playing the same HLG content from the TV's internal app and the M9500 player, the content looks identical.

 

I'm nearly 100% confident that the problem lies with whatever external device you are using.


I did numerous tests, all described previously in this and the Sky Q / HLG threads:

  • Sky Q YouTube app and HDFury Integral to inject the HDR infoframe.
  • Roku Stick+ as a media player, both natively and using HDFury Integral to inject the HDR infoframe.
  • XBOX One X media player and HDFury Integral to inject HDR infoframe.

Each time using 21 grey scale (0% - 100%) on a 10% window. Measured twice with two different colorimeters and HCFR software.

 

in each test I then repeated the exact same procedure on a Samsung MU6400 TV to prove the procedure worked on another TV. The MU6400 used a correct HLG EOTF curve, whereas the KS8000 always used an incorrect HLG EOTF curve. Conveniently the MU6400 shows HLG when receiving HLG, so I was able to verify that my tests were creating HLG content and infoframe.

 

I believe there maybe media players that take HLG content and convert it to HDR10 before output to HDMI.

 

I have also subsequently repeated the same tests on my current TV, a Panasonic FZ952, which displays the correct HLG EOTF curve.

 

All these tests convinced me that the KS TVs use the wrong HLG EOTF curve on their HDMI inputs. The correct EOTF curve is used on the TVs internal apps (media player & YouTube). This also correlates with testers on the Italian forum who experienced washed out pictures when using Sky Q with HDFury Integral correcting the EDID data.

 

It should be very simple for anyone with a colorimeter to repeat these tests on a KS TV with the new test firmware to establish if Samsung have fixed this fault in the HLG EOTF curve.

 

EDIT: @UHDHDR, what device did you test with? And are you sure it actually outputs HLG on HDMI or does it convert HLG content to HDR10+ when outputting on HDMI?

Voyager

@tarbat wrote:

Q@UHDHDR wrote:

@tarbat wrote:

@tarbat wrote:
Has anyone with this new firmware actually tested some HLG calibration test content to measure whether the luminance response curve matches the correct HLG EOTF curve? If so, what was the maximum NITS measured on a 10% window at 100% luminence? On the old non-HLG firmware, the maximum was less than 500 NITS, so nowhere near the maximum luminance the TV is capable of.

Until someone does that, we have no idea if this test firmware completely fixes the HLG problem on KS TVs.

And here's the calibration chart I posted back in June demonstrating just how wrong the HLG EOTF curve is on the current firmware. If someone with the new test firmware can perform the same tests, that will prove that HLG is genuinely fixed beyond just the EDID fix.

 

1.jpg


Which external device were you using when you performed this test, and was there a noticeable difference when you compared the same HLG content via the internal apps vs an external device?

 

I ask because I've been able to get HLG via HDMI from my M9500 player for several months now, and playing the same HLG content from the TV's internal app and the M9500 player, the content looks identical.

 

I'm nearly 100% confident that the problem lies with whatever external device you are using.


I did numerous tests, all described previously in this and the Sky Q / HLG threads:

  • Sky Q YouTube app and HDFury Integral to inject the HDR infoframe.
  • Roku Stick+ as a media player, both natively and using HDFury Integral to inject the HDR infoframe.
  • XBOX One X media player and HDFury Integral to inject HDR infoframe.

Each time using 21 grey scale (0% - 100%) on a 10% window. Measured twice with two different colorimeters and HCFR software.

 

in each test I then repeated the exact same procedure on a Samsung MU6400 TV to prove the procedure worked on another TV. The MU6400 used a correct HLG EOTF curve, whereas the KS8000 always used an incorrect HLG EOTF curve. Conveniently the MU6400 shows HLG when receiving HLG, so I was able to verify that my tests were creating HLG content and infoframe.

 

I believe there maybe media players that take HLG content and convert it to HDR10 before output to HDMI.

 

I have also subsequently repeated the same tests on my current TV, a Panasonic FZ952, which displays the correct HLG EOTF curve.

 

All these tests convinced me that the KS TVs use the wrong HLG EOTF curve on their HDMI inputs. The correct EOTF curve is used on the TVs internal apps (media player & YouTube). This also correlates with testers on the Italian forum who experienced washed out pictures when using Sky Q with HDFury Integral correcting the EDID data.

 

It should be very simple for anyone with a colorimeter to repeat these tests on a KS TV with the new test firmware to establish if Samsung have fixed this fault in the HLG EOTF curve.

 

EDIT: @UHDHDR, what device did you test with? And are you sure it actually outputs HLG on HDMI or does it convert HLG content to HDR10+ when outputting on HDMI?


I am using the YouTube app via a Samsung M9500 blu ray player. Judging by the HLG via HDMI curve from your tests, there should be extreme over brightening that produces a very washed out image. I've experienced none of that. The image looks 100% identical to the same content via the internal app.

 

I would be shocked if the player is converting HLG to HDR10. The player has HDMI 2.0b ports, so it can easily transmit HLG. It would have been much more difficult for Samsung to convert HLG to HDR10 than it would to simply add HLG compatibility, so it would have made no sense for them to do.

 

Perhaps the issue lies with the way the HDFury is injecting the HDR infoframe when hooked up to the KS8000.

Voyager

@UHDHDR, So is the Samsung M9500 blu ray player ignoring the EDID from the KS TV and sending HLG regardless? That seems unlikely, hence my suggestion that it may be outputting as HDR10 when playing HLG content to a TV with an EDID that excludes HLG compatibility. That seems far more likely than it ignoring the TV’s EDID.

 

Best way to test is to use an HDFury Integral to inspect the HDR Infoframe being sent from the M9500.

Voyager

@tarbat wrote:

@UHDHDR, So is the Samsung M9500 blu ray player ignoring the EDID from the KS TV and sending HLG regardless? That seems unlikely, hence my suggestion that it may be outputting as HDR10 when playing HLG content to a TV with an EDID that excludes HLG compatibility. Best way to test is to use an HDFury Integral to inspect the HDR Infoframe being sent from the M9500.


I think it's far more unlikely that it's converting it to HDR10. I don't know of a single device on the market that converts HLG to HDR10. If it was something that was easy to implement, surely every device would do so, in order to circumvent any incompatibility. 

 

I don't own an HDFury, as I have no use for one. Perhaps there are some posters on AVS who own both an HDFURY and an M9500/M8500.

Voyager

What is the visual effect of the incorrect curve? 

 

I have a Roku+ and have watched the first two episodes of BBCs Dynasties in HDR HLG via its iPlayer app.  The picture is stunning and the me at least comparable to UHD bluray. 

 

I can provide photos to demonstrate - although a photo from a phone won't do it justice!

Voyager

@blenky wrote:

What is the visual effect of the incorrect curve? 

 

I have a Roku+ and have watched the first two episodes of BBCs Dynasties in HDR HLG via its iPlayer app.  The picture is stunning and the me at least comparable to UHD bluray. 

 

I can provide photos to demonstrate - although a photo from a phone won't do it justice!


Streaming will never look as good as disc.

 

Anyways, you need to compare the same content on an external device vs an internal app on the TV. HLG videos on YouTube make the most sense.

 

The effect of the HLG via HDMI curve from tarbat's tests would be an over brightened image that is extremely washed out. 

Voyager

@UHDHDR wrote:

@blenky wrote:

What is the visual effect of the incorrect curve? 

 

I have a Roku+ and have watched the first two episodes of BBCs Dynasties in HDR HLG via its iPlayer app.  The picture is stunning and the me at least comparable to UHD bluray. 

 

I can provide photos to demonstrate - although a photo from a phone won't do it justice!


Streaming will never look as good as disc.

 

Anyways, you need to compare the same content on an external device vs an internal app on the TV. HLG videos on YouTube make the most sense.

 

The effect of the HLG via HDMI curve from tarbat's tests would be an over brightened image that is extremely washed out. 


OK maybe not quite as good as a disk but pretty close.  Much better than Netflix or Amazon streams.

 

Unfortuately the YouTube app on the Roku+ will play HDR10 but not HLG clips so I can't do a direct comparison.  Hoever I've watched the second epiosde of Dynasties which is the penguins so a lot of snow.  Didn't look overbright or washed out.

Voyager

@UHDHDR wrote:
Judging by the HLG via HDMI curve from your tests, there should be extreme over brightening that produces a very washed out image. I've experienced none of that. The image looks 100% identical to the same content via the internal app.

I wouldn't say "extreme over brightening", but yes, a washed out image is what I was seeing when streaming iPlayer HLG content from the Roku Stick+. The comparison of EOTF curves between the KS TV (bottom) and an MU6400 TV (top) is obvious:

1.jpg

 

Tested on each TV using the same methodology, by injecting HLG metadata:

87:01:1a:6d:03:00:3e:21:91:9b:aa:19:f7:08:43:8a:08:39:13:3d:42:40:e8:03:00:00:e8:03:e8:03

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