Re: Samsung, you have to introduce dolby vision - Page 10

Benrc · ‎10-08-2019

This is ridiculous. DV is taking off and your lack of support does nothung but hurt your customers.

How about you lead the way and put your customers before some ***** fisted marketing strategy?

Soul_ · ‎31-08-2020

If you do, you might find yourself in the same bucket as my friend last year. He picked up a 75" Q90R, a week or so later he came over for some drinks. Long story short, ended up watching Disney+ and Netflix in DV on my OLED. Next thing you know he ended up replacing his Samsung for a Sony with DV. It is that big of a difference. Especially for gaming, because Samsung completely turns off FALD for game mode. Check out HDTV test video on it, google "HDTVTest How Game Mode Affects Picture Quality".

Frankly my Samsung is now a cartoon show machine for my kids, that's it.

I hope this helps.

jdk2087 · ‎31-08-2020

The dimming/game mode is being fixed with a firmware update on the 14th of September along with other improvements. If it indeed comes to fruition then I’m overall happy that I went with the Q over anything Sony. I highly enjoy Sony’s products, but DV is not a deal breaker for me. Also the firmware update for HDMI 2.1 is a little concerning.

Soul_ · ‎31-08-2020

Well I hope they fix it, but no matter how much they fix, it will never be as good as an OLED gaming mode. We know that. Plus I don't use Sony TVs myself, a bit too expensive for my taste.

As for DV, your opinion has its place, but here are the facts:

1. All Major streaming providers (NetFlix, Disney+, etc.) support Dolby Vision as the only dynamic metadata format.

2. All consoles and PC graphics cards only support Dolby Vision as the only dynamic metadata format.

3. All movie houses (after Disney acquired Fox) support Dolby Vision as the only dynamic metadata format.

The only content provider that supports HDR10+ is Amazon prime.

So if I wish to use Dynamic metadata, which I absolutely would, (as HDR should be changed for each scene based on creators intent, and not just fixed for the entire movie), then Dolby Vision or DV is the only option.

My question is simple, why would I buy a flagship TV in 2020, and be stuck with static HDR from 2015? Makes no sense. Because if you pick a TV that doesn't have Dolby Vision, that is exactly going to be the case, unless you only watch amazon prime.

DrGravity · ‎01-09-2020

I mean just to correct your "facts"

1) Yes Netflix, Apple TV and Disney+ use Dolby Vision (although funnily enough Disney don't use DV for UHD Blu-ray which is the best way to watch content when available) . Meanwhile Amazon, Google Play and Rakuten use HDR10+. It's more of a split than you're implying though DV is more popular.

2) Neither the PS4 or Xbox One support Dolby Vision for gaming. PS4 doesn't support it full stop while Xbox just supports it for Netflix. PC can support DV for gaming but the actual list of supported games is miniscule. If your gaming HDR then it will be HDR10

3) Cinema standards generally have nothing to do with TV's and in any case most cinemas don't actually have HDR. Of those that do, IMAX is by far and away the most popular HDR format as they use their own proprietry format. Dolby is far less common.

The actual facts are that while dynamic metadata can certainly have a benefit to HDR, particularly on lower brightness displays (hello OLED!), the biggest factors in HDR performance are a TV's peak brightness and colour volume. The better both of these are, the less difference Dynamic metadata will make.

To answer your question why anyone would supposedly buy a TV without DV the answer is simple: because other factors matter way more. My QLED with around 1500nits brightness and 100% colour volume beats any OLED with about 800nits at peak and maybe 80% colour volume and I've yet to see any OLED get close to it's HDR performance regardless of HDR format.

Dynamic metadata is not a revolution but a solution to help lower brightness displays compensate for the larger amount of tone mapping they need to do. There's a reason why OLED's were among the first displays to embrace DV as it helped level the playing field vs high luminance LCD displays when it came to HDR. The higher a TV's peak brigtness, the less impact it will have.

Soul_ · ‎01-09-2020

Good job Samsung. Removed my post which debunked his claims line by line. Not going to write it again but here are some more facts.

The fact that OLED at 700-800nits has higher HDR Gamut coverage than 1500 Nits QLED (ref: RTINGS).

The fact that Google play has next to no HDR10+ content.

The fact that XBOX, Playstation, Apple TV & iphone, Nvidia and AMD have an official documentation on enabling DV, and none for HDR10+.

The fact that only 1 Major streaming provider supports HDR 10+, and that too with limited content.

The fact that HDR10+ only has 30 movies till now, and not even a single upcoming title. Compare this to 100+ for DV with 4 that released this august.

The fact that Netflix has 220 distinct titles and Disney+ has 198 distinct titles on DV, (add more for Apple TV+ and others), and then contrast it with HDR10+ titles on all content providers combined at 84.

Counter these facts if you can. Removing posts wont change reality.

DrGravity · ‎02-09-2020

Since you obviously think there is some conspiracy against you deleting your posts I'll respond to the points on your original post since I got the email notification. I won't repost your comment about talking out of my butt because I'm not 12 and pathetic. Starting to think you can't make that claim.

@Soul_ wrote:

O yes the Rakuten and Google play, who literally are the most used streaming platforms! Did you read "All Major streaming providers", or did your fanboyism just ignore it?

I mean you are literally apparently an OLED owner who spends a lot of time posting on the Samsung forums trying to convince people not to buy QLED. You can appreciate the irony in you calling someone else a fanboy right?

The ones I listed effectively count for all the major streaming services here in the UK but if you want to keep to "majors" by your definition then it's Netflix (DV exclusive) followed by Amazon (HDR10+ exclusive) then you can count Disney+ in third place if you want (DV exclusive). Like I said DV is more popular but it's still a split between the major players.

@Soul_ wrote:

The point was about supporting DV, not about supporting DV just for games. All of the devices mentioned above support DV, so video and games played from these devices can take advantage of dynamic metadata via DV only. And as for content, refer to the point above.

Uhmm no videos and games CAN'T take advantage of dynamic metadata that's the point. PS4 doesn't support DV at all like I said. Xbox only supports it for Netflix, not games, UHD discs or any other video content. You will only get HDR10 on current gen consoles with the one exception of the Netflix app on Xbox which you could watch on your TV anyway. You can get Dolby Vision on PC sure but to what end? There are almost no DV supported games and is there any other content available apart from the above apps that presumably you get on TV anyway?

@Soul_ wrote:

I am speaking about movie production, people who add metadata to the BluRays that get purchased. Those studios are only supporting DV now. So it absolutely has everything to do with how we consume content. One more thing, Proprietary is how it is spelled.

Oh no I missed an "a" out of proprietary while typing on my phone that you felt the need to point out. Well guess my entire position is now void and I must bow to your superior logic. You must be a riot at parties by the way.

By far the biggest HDR format for Blu-Rays is HDR10 and it will likely remain the case that static, not dynamic metadata will continue to be the majority in the disc world. It's not actually true FYI that studios are only supporting DV (those pesky facts keep undermining you don't they). Universal and Warners support HDR10+ and DV while Disney (and by extension now Fox) who are far and away the biggest player, ONLY support HDR10. If we examine the top 5 disc releases of 2019 then three were HDR10, only one had DV and one had HDR10+.

@Soul_ wrote:

I can see that you are distracted again, and I will humour you. When you can produce absolute black, you are able to reproduce a lot more of the darker shades, than an LED can. As for Colour volume, go check RTINGS and check the HDR spectrum coverage. Don't try to change the point. However, the point was about aligning the scene to creators intent, rather than taking a median metadata for the whole movie, which is what static metadata does.

Wow we're so lucky to have you here to explain at us what the creators intent is for various content. I feel so humbled now I know that the "creators" want us to watch it in Dolby Vision. I have to ask did the "creators" whisper this in your ear? Write it on a post it note and stick it to your fridge? Ah it doesn't matter I can get rid of my QLED and just grab a cheap Toshiba LCD with DV built in and know I'll get an experience closer to what the creator intended. Wait I have questions though! What if we're talking about HDR10+ content? Are you saying it's fine to watch that on your OLED if it's not what the creator intended? Or lets take Avengers Endgame which was the biggest selling disc last year and a 4000nit HDR10 encode. Are you saying because it's not DV then it doesn't represent the creators intent?? Maybe we shouldn't watch it at all on any display that can't achieve that 4000nits! I'd better return my copy!

To answer your other slightly confused point yes OLED can achieve perfect black and get darker than LCD's, which is their trick to delivering HDR when they can't achieve the peak brightness. Not sure what you mean by "HDR Spectrum Coverage" (Pro tip - putting random words together to sound smart doesn't always work). In both peak brightness and colour volume QLED scores higher than OLED on RTINGS which is what I said? On the other hand if you're citing RTINGS as a bible for TV ratings then that's great. Look at their scoring breakdown for HDR Movies and HDR Gaming. Dolby Vision makes up <1% of the final HDR rating, literally one of the least important aspects of HDR performance. Thank you for making my point for me.

@Soul_ wrote:

What will this colour volume do, when it cant produce creators intent, again refer to RTINGS testing, as QLED is no where at the top for HDR Gamut, even though it has 1500nits. This is quite embarrassing when 700-800nit OLEDs are better. It is about quality, let me know when you learn the difference.

"HDR Gamut" is not an actual term. Again see my above note on trying to put words together to sound smart. Also I've been in the TV industry for 20 years working with the retailers and manufacturers and have probably compared every major model released in that time so surprisingly I don't need you to explain anything about picture quality to me.

You keep going back to RTINGS and I guess that means that you agree with their ratings and the almost negligible weighting they give to Dolby Vision? Surely that ends the debate around it's importance right there.

If your referring to overall HDR scoring then RTINGS put the heaviest weighting on contrast when working out their final score as opposed to other factors such as HDR Peak Brightness, Colour Volume etc. It's entirely their decision to take that approach, not an industry baseline and many, including myself, would and indeed do, dispute what is most important. To me this exposes one of the key weaknesses in trying to arbitrarily assign a score out of 10 to every aspect of a TV's performance as much as I respect RTINGS and consider them a good resource, albeit one among many.

Let's say take the RTINGS HDR movie scores for my Q9FN (8.6) vs a C9 (8.8). Both very close scores, both have great HDR according to RTINGS (though I'm sure you would try and use the 0.2 difference to declare OLED champion of the universe or something). The QLED trounced the OLED in peak brightness and Colour Volume exactly like I said. The final score reflects the fact that the biggest slice of that score, 23% is contrast where an OLED is always going to score higher due to pixel level dimming. Not everyone agrees with this approach and their weightings on what is most important but that's why RTINGS rate every individual aspect separately so people can make up their minds The bottom line is RTINGS rate both TV's really highly and would tell you themselves that trying to declare a 0.2 difference in scoring as some sort of declaration of absolute superiority of one TV over another is stupid. Also RTINGS are not the only game in town, there just one opinion.

@Soul_ wrote:

I knew that you would bring this point again, even though people crushed you on this point last year. So, I am not going to respond again, when you can refer to posts from last year.

Uhm I think you and I are remembering that previous interaction very differently. Please do point out to me where I was "crushed". Alternatively feel free to refute what I said.

@Soul_ wrote:

In all, stop defending a corporation that refuses spend 3 dollars on your TV while taking 2000 dollars from you.

I'm not defending a corporation. Hell I think Samsung probably should introduce DV at this point. It could help HDR performance on their lower to mid range models same as it does elsewhere while ending ridiculous threads like this. I also don't think that it is ultimately that important and that it makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. I don't really care if people want to prefer OLED or believe Dolby Vision is the second coming or something that's their business but when I see people trying to influence other peoples purchasing decisions by misinterpreting facts, twisting the truth and being genuinely disingenuous like you do then I'll step in. It has nothing to do with defending a corporation. Flipping it round I could also accuse you of shilling for Dolby and promoting a closed eco system over an open source one.

I mean why are you even here? You literally don't have skin in the game. You apparently have an OLED with DV that you're very happy with so why aren't you watching it instead of spending all this time on a Samsung forum trying to convince people that they need to include DV on their TV's or buy an OLED? I don't spend time on LG forums trying to explain why people shouldn't buy their TV's. This all seems like the definition of trolling.

Soul_ · ‎02-09-2020

@DrGravity wrote:

Since you obviously think there is some conspiracy against you deleting your posts I'll respond to the points on your original post since I got the email notification. I won't repost your comment about talking out of my butt because I'm not 12 and pathetic. Starting to think you can't make that claim.

We will see, because you had no substance, and all distractions in your reply. To me that is grade-A BS. Furthermore, every single one of my points is either backed by a source a fact in substance itself, so you can absolutely say whatever you want, but you cant deny them, as you haven't been able to either.

@Soul_ wrote:

O yes the Rakuten and Google play, who literally are the most used streaming platforms! Did you read "All Major streaming providers", or did your fanboyism just ignore it?

I mean you are literally apparently an OLED owner who spends a lot of time posting on the Samsung forums trying to convince people not to buy QLED. You can appreciate the irony in you calling someone else a fanboy right?

Is it illegal in your country to have 2 TVs? I have both, so get over it.

The ones I listed effectively count for all the major streaming services here in the UK but if you want to keep to "majors" by your definition then it's Netflix (DV exclusive) followed by Amazon (HDR10+ exclusive) then you can count Disney+ in third place if you want (DV exclusive). Like I said DV is more popular but it's still a split between the major players.

No Matter which way you slice it, Google play and Rakuten are not major. Take European streaming share or North American or global. Even if they are, their combined distinct title count is 84 for HDR10+. Doesn't sound very major to me. And where did I say that Amazon Prime was not major?

What do you mean DV is split between them? I think you mean DV is used by all of them. Just because everyone uses DV doesn't mean that it gets split between them, it means they all add to it. It means that more people generate and provide content for it. This is truly grasping at the straws. I just can't believe the type of thought process I am dealing with here.

@Soul_ wrote:

The point was about supporting DV, not about supporting DV just for games. All of the devices mentioned above support DV, so video and games played from these devices can take advantage of dynamic metadata via DV only. And as for content, refer to the point above.

Uhmm no videos and games CAN'T take advantage of dynamic metadata that's the point. PS4 doesn't support DV at all like I said. Xbox only supports it for Netflix, not games, UHD discs or any other video content. You will only get HDR10 on current gen consoles with the one exception of the Netflix app on Xbox which you could watch on your TV anyway. You can get Dolby Vision on PC sure but to what end? There are almost no DV supported games and is there any other content available apart from the above apps that presumably you get on TV anyway?

Quiet conveniently missing the point again, it is about supporting DV. Where is the support for HDR10+? Furthermore, EA titles already support DV. I have personally played games with DV enabled. Ofcourse you wouldn't know because you don't have DV.

@Soul_ wrote:

I am speaking about movie production, people who add metadata to the BluRays that get purchased. Those studios are only supporting DV now. So it absolutely has everything to do with how we consume content. One more thing, Proprietary is how it is spelled.

Oh no I missed an "a" out of proprietary while typing on my phone that you felt the need to point out. Well guess my entire position is now void and I must bow to your superior logic. You must be a riot at parties by the way.

By far the biggest HDR format for Blu-Rays is HDR10 and it will likely remain the case that static, not dynamic metadata will continue to be the majority in the disc world. It's not actually true FYI that studios are only supporting DV (those pesky facts keep undermining you don't they). Universal and Warners support HDR10+ and DV while Disney (and by extension now Fox) who are far and away the biggest player, ONLY support HDR10. If we examine the top 5 disc releases of 2019 then three were HDR10, only one had DV and one had HDR10+.

Missing the Point again, the point is about Dynamic Metadata. Ofcourse every HDR title supports static metadata. The point is about Dynamic metadata format, do you understand that? Or are you still missing it? DV and HDR10+ are dynamic metadata formats. And the point is about which dynamic metadata format is supported. If you wish to the see the title count, use my previous post. If you wish to see the title list, for gods sake, google it.

I think we have established at this point, that you most certainly may have issues focussing in life.

@Soul_ wrote:

I can see that you are distracted again, and I will humour you. When you can produce absolute black, you are able to reproduce a lot more of the darker shades, than an LED can. As for Colour volume, go check RTINGS and check the HDR spectrum coverage. Don't try to change the point. However, the point was about aligning the scene to creators intent, rather than taking a median metadata for the whole movie, which is what static metadata does.

Wow we're so lucky to have you here to explain at us what the creators intent is for various content. I feel so humbled now I know that the "creators" want us to watch it in Dolby Vision. I have to ask did the "creators" whisper this in your ear? Write it on a post it note and stick it to your fridge? Ah it doesn't matter I can get rid of my QLED and just grab a cheap Toshiba LCD with DV built in and know I'll get an experience closer to what the creator intended. Wait I have questions though! What if we're talking about HDR10+ content? Are you saying it's fine to watch that on your OLED if it's not what the creator intended? Or lets take Avengers Endgame which was the biggest selling disc last year and a 4000nit HDR10 encode. Are you saying because it's not DV then it doesn't represent the creators intent?? Maybe we shouldn't watch it at all on any display that can't achieve that 4000nits! I'd better return my copy!

Distracted again are we? Creators like to adapt each scene with metadata that is apt for the scene itself. Mastering for luminance and mastering the metadata for colour reproduction are correlated but still two different things, and furthermore being able to do it for each scene and not for the entire movie. I have compared my Samsung and OLED in the same room on the same content, and the difference between HDR10 /w Dynamic tone mapping vs DV on DV content is huge.

And even if we remove HDR all together, and go back to 2010, do you think that all TVs were equally matched on SDR content? No they weren't, so you can keep on watching whatever you are watching, but we all know that you are missing out. You are missing out on depth of the scene, you are missing out of darker colours and shades, you are missing out of contrast. So be happy with that if you need to be.

To answer your other slightly confused point yes OLED can achieve perfect black and get darker than LCD's, which is their trick to delivering HDR when they can't achieve the peak brightness. Not sure what you mean by "HDR Spectrum Coverage" (Pro tip - putting random words together to sound smart doesn't always work). In both peak brightness and colour volume QLED scores higher than OLED on RTINGS which is what I said? On the other hand if you're citing RTINGS as a bible for TV ratings then that's great. Look at their scoring breakdown for HDR Movies and HDR Gaming. Dolby Vision makes up <1% of the final HDR rating, literally one of the least important aspects of HDR performance. Thank you for making my point for me.

Wait, so a feature of the technology, is a trick? O good, we would have never known the conspiracy on this one. Representing true deep colours is a trick everyone!! Please all watch washed out grey colours because that is what Samsung gods want us to.

Get over yourself.

Well I could not find a single term to explain BT.2020 colour space with DCIP3 gamut coverage, so I ended up using "HDR Spectrum". I ask you for forgiveness, o mighty "proprietry god of the gray black colours".

@Soul_ wrote:

What will this colour volume do, when it cant produce creators intent, again refer to RTINGS testing, as QLED is no where at the top for HDR Gamut, even though it has 1500nits. This is quite embarrassing when 700-800nit OLEDs are better. It is about quality, let me know when you learn the difference.

"HDR Gamut" is not an actual term. Again see my above note on trying to put words together to sound smart. Also I've been in the TV industry for 20 years working with the retailers and manufacturers and have probably compared every major model released in that time so surprisingly I don't need you to explain anything about picture quality to me.

Please be so kind o mighty "proprietry god of the gray black colours" to look at the previous statement of mine. I know there is mercy in your presence.

You keep going back to RTINGS and I guess that means that you agree with their ratings and the almost negligible weighting they give to Dolby Vision? Surely that ends the debate around it's importance right there.

It just means that they understand colour science better than our "proprietry god of the gray black colours", so I would rather refer a credible source than your ramblings.

O yes, how your ramblings have ended the debate. For debating you need to grow some intellect first, just opinions don't count.

If your referring to overall HDR scoring then RTINGS put the heaviest weighting on contrast when working out their final score as opposed to other factors such as HDR Peak Brightness, Colour Volume etc. It's entirely their decision to take that approach, not an industry baseline and many, including myself, would and indeed do, dispute what is most important. To me this exposes one of the key weaknesses in trying to arbitrarily assign a score out of 10 to every aspect of a TV's performance as much as I respect RTINGS and consider them a good resource, albeit one among many.

Let's say take the RTINGS HDR movie scores for my Q9FN (8.6) vs a C9 (8.8). Both very close scores, both have great HDR according to RTINGS (though I'm sure you would try and use the 0.2 difference to declare OLED champion of the universe or something). The QLED trounced the OLED in peak brightness and Colour Volume exactly like I said. The final score reflects the fact that the biggest slice of that score, 23% is contrast where an OLED is always going to score higher due to pixel level dimming. Not everyone agrees with this approach and their weightings on what is most important but that's why RTINGS rate every individual aspect separately so people can make up their minds The bottom line is RTINGS rate both TV's really highly and would tell you themselves that trying to declare a 0.2 difference in scoring as some sort of declaration of absolute superiority of one TV over another is stupid. Also RTINGS are not the only game in town, there just one opinion.

Ofcourse they are going to use all factors because all of those factors together provide you the image that you see on the screen. So, you would rather leave the important criteria like contrast and DCIP3 coverage out, because Samsung can't win at it? This is where the discussion ends, because this is what a fanboy does. Leaves out, or tries to get people to leave out the information that doesn't work in their favour.

As for superiority, you are the one who brought it up. Didn't you? How QLED can do 1500 nits? All I said that even with 1500 nits it still cant match an OLED at 700 nits. That is all I said. And look at how good that got you. That <1% really got you to write an essay. Made your point for you, pfft.

Grow a pair and face the reality.

@Soul_ wrote:

I knew that you would bring this point again, even though people crushed you on this point last year. So, I am not going to respond again, when you can refer to posts from last year.

Uhm I think you and I are remembering that previous interaction very differently. Please do point out to me where I was "crushed". Alternatively feel free to refute what I said.

Refer to posts from last year, which weren't just from me, but from every other user on this thread. You being the only person defending Samsung. Do you see a pattern here, or not yet?

@Soul_ wrote:

In all, stop defending a corporation that refuses spend 3 dollars on your TV while taking 2000 dollars from you.

I'm not defending a corporation. Hell I think Samsung probably should introduce DV at this point. It could help HDR performance on their lower to mid range models same as it does elsewhere while ending ridiculous threads like this. I also don't think that it is ultimately that important and that it makes little difference in the grand scheme of things. I don't really care if people want to prefer OLED or believe Dolby Vision is the second coming or something that's their business but when I see people trying to influence other peoples purchasing decisions by misinterpreting facts, twisting the truth and being genuinely disingenuous like you do then I'll step in. It has nothing to do with defending a corporation. Flipping it round I could also accuse you of shilling for Dolby and promoting a closed eco system over an open source one.

You absolutely are defending Samsung, look at this entire thread. you are justifying them not supporting the most widely used dynamic metadata format, when their self-serving interest is placed pushing their HDR10+ which is only supported by 1 major provider, Amazon Prime. And that is it.

I specifically discussed what this thread is about, which is DV vs HDR10+, just because you are unable to focus on the topic, you are the one who brought QLED vs OLED into discussion.

O yes, asking a company to allow my product (which I paid for) to work with a widely accepted format is shilling, yep. You certainly have the thought process of a conspiracy theorist. Look at this entire thread, and then tell me why you are here discussing OLED vs QLED, justifying Samsung not supporting what even freaking TCL supports on their 500 dollar TVs. Cmon... And then you have the nerve to call others as shills. Get real...

I mean why are you even here? You literally don't have skin in the game. You apparently have an OLED with DV that you're very happy with so why aren't you watching it instead of spending all this time on a Samsung forum trying to convince people that they need to include DV on their TV's or buy an OLED? I don't spend time on LG forums trying to explain why people shouldn't buy their TV's. This all seems like the definition of trolling.

Again, it is legal in most of the free world to but more than 1 TV in a household. Your concept of reality is so far involved in justifying your choices, that you cant see the other side. I admit that I made a mistake by purchasing Samsung, and I am here just to make sure that people in the same boat don't make the same mistake. But I don't think that you have the capacity to understand something like that.

Are you done now?

Back to the topic, Dolby Vision is the only widely supported dynamic HDR metadata. You either buy a TV that supports it, or get stuck with static metadata.

CarloL · ‎02-09-2020

Guys please feel free to share and compare your point of view and opinions but in a constructive manner and not offending each other. Here you can find more info on Community Guidelines.

Click here to see 'How to set up Emergency SOS on your Galaxy Smartphone'

Soul_ · ‎02-09-2020

Ofcourse my post removed again. Carl, if you wish me to revise my comment please tell which part offended your sensibilities. don't just remove it.

DrGravity · ‎02-09-2020

@CarloL wrote:

Guys please feel free to share and compare your point of view and opinions but in a constructive manner and not offending each other. Here you can find more info on Community Guidelines.

Yeah point taken. The sarcasm was not warranted (well mostly at least 😂) and is just a distraction from the facts.

I'll take this opportunity to bow out as Soul is not going to be swayed by anything I say regardless so this discussion is not going to go anywhere. The posts are here, anyone who comes looking for info can read them and decide which viewpoint they find more credible.