I thought it might be useful just to have this thread with all the useful links, reference numbers but not for discussion. Letters sent and received yes please and any info to help people make their case.
Remember any section 75 claims do not say the dongle is a freeby because it is not. It is a part of the spec just like the remote, and without it you can use the tv as the hub of your internet of things. They have been using the word free as an excuse.
I’m being offered a 2017 q7 for replacement of the ks7 from Samsung, they said they are still manufacturing the 2107 version, and wouldn’t offer the 2108. Anyone have any experience of a valid argument that they should supply the 2108 version?
If your complaint was about the lack of the SmartThings Extend USB adapter, then AFAIK only the 2018 models have built-in SmartThings functionality.
John Lewis customer service agreed to a full refund. Just swapped to new lg b7 in store. Store man wasn't happy and lectured me on why they shouldn't be doing this. Overall very happy with John Lewis and process took less than a week using the email template posted a few pages ago. Good luck everybody else.
They constantly lie. Presumably they're also telling retailers the same lies. I've had these two statements from the Presidential Escalations Team Manager:
1. The SmartThings Extend USB adapter and the SmartThings hub are the same hardware!!
He said "The Smart Things Extend USB Adaptor and the current Smart Things Hub we are offering customers are in effect the same piece of hardware"
2. The SmartThings Extend USB adapter needed another SmartThings device to control it!!
He said "We can confirm that the Smart Things Hub can be controlled by a compatible Smart Things device such as a mobile device. This is a piece of hardware offering the same functionality as the Smart Things Extend USB Adaptor that, due to technical reasons, was unable to be released in the UK. This would also have required a similarly compatible device to operate and thus from the hardware perspective there are no changes"
I wonder if any retailers really understand the difference between the Extend USB adapter and the Hub. Probably not, if they're trusting information from Samsung.
Here it is direct from Samsung in replying to an email I sent them.
The SmartThings Extend (with the USB dongle) integration is different to the adding your TV as a 'Thing' (with a SmartThings Hub integration.
The complimentary Hub that we propose to send out to you will be the SmartThings v2 Hub and this will give you the capability of adding your TV as a Thing. With a SmartThings v2 Hub, you will have the functionality of including it in SmartThings Classic Routines and SmartThings Automations. Another feature is to able to use select TV controls on your mobile phone such as power On/Off, volume up/down and channel up/down as well as picture mode control.
Do a detailed list of the things that clearly show that the Smartthings external Hub is not the same as the TV integrated extend and send it back to them asking them to respond to your specific questions rather then just going from a script that's incorrect. If they just send back the scripted answers it would add to the evidence of your case as they were given an opportunity to address things and didn't.
I said in a posting a few days back, this is a game, the reason they're making this offer is if anyone gets to court they can claim the took 'reasonable' steps to mitigate their failure to provide the originally specified functionality, you have to break down their argument point by point.
With all due respect throwing your hands in the air and rolling you eyes while stating (paraphrased) "...they're just fracking i d i o t s!!...." does nothing to further your argument and courts make decision based on logical arguments.
So if you want to win, respond in a way that puts them back on the defence and makes them do work.
Maybe all those who have hit a brick wall with the retailer should at least pursue their complaint with Samsung as well. That's what I'm doing whilst I wait for my 30 days to tick down with the EU ODR. Here's my latest response to their UK President:
Sorry Xxxx, I’m confused. That statement refers to “content providers”. Surely you’re not suggesting that Samsung is just a content provider? I thought Samsung were the manufacturer of the TV, the SmartThings Extend USB adaptor, and the SmartThings functionality on the TV. Nowhere in any of the advertising can I find reference to the SmartThings Extend USB adaptor or the SmartThings functionality being described as just an App.
Are you suggesting that Samsung could choose to stop supporting, for example, the TV’s remote control? Or the TV’s tuner? Because that functionality is provided by Samsung as a “content provider” rather than a manufacturer?
As I’ve said, the SmartThings hub is of no use to a disabled person like my wife. I’m very disappointed that Samsung can’t understand that.
And one other thing. I got my grandson to research this, and he has discovered that the Nvidia Shield with the Samsung SmartThings Link USB dongle will do exactly what was originally promised on my KS8000 TV. It will allow control of SmartThing devices directly from the TV using a remote control. Will you provide that solution instead of the hub?
So......If you do decide to go to court here is the checklist of things that you need to have prepared:-
1. Before you can file the Court Papers you need to send a 'Letter before Action' RECORDED delivery to the registered office of the company you intend to issue proceedings against. When you send the item recorded delivery take a photo of the envelope address and then the receipt and E-Mail them to yourself so you cannot then accidentally 'lose' them.
2. Your letter before action should lay out your argument along the lines of....
I purchased Samsung Model KSxxxx TV from yourselves serial number yyyyyy on DATE via Online/InStore, the invoice number you issued was zzzzzz and I have attached a copy of the invoice as attachment number one in the document bundle.
I was informed that this model would support XYZ features (do a list here of features, each one on a separate line) by phone/your website/in store before purchase. (If from the website) I have attached the relevant pages from your website as attachment two in the document bundle, these pages are available online to view at (give Wayback machine web address). If by phone or instore if you can remember who you spoke to (it may be on the receipt) and the approximate date you had the conversation.
As at this date these features have not been implemented and indeed on DATE Samsung announced they would not now be providing this functionality, therefore while it is clear that Samsung have let you down it is also clear that I was sold an item that was misrepresented to me at time of sale.
(If applicable) While Samsung have offered me a Smartthings Hub as a resolution this does not provide the same functionality as the TV for the following reasons (now list, one item per line).
Therefore as the item is not as described I wish to be fully refunded for the item to stop me issuing court proceedings.
I am willing to pursue an ADR resolution to this issue, if you are willing to commit, in writing, for it to be a binding resolution on both parties before commencement. I would draw your attention to the fact that I will also (if the forum member is willing to do so) provide to the court an existing ADR resolution for this issue which happened to Mr FRED SMITH (change as appropriate) who has provided an affidavit for same which I have attached the details for as attachment three in the bundle. (The forum member who the ADR was done with will have to write (type) a statement of exactly what happened, sign and date it and send it to the person who will be sending the Letter before Action, the following is the preferred layout and once done it's usually easiest to turn it into a PDF for emailing)
I will also provide to the court (if the forum member is willing to do it) E-Mails that have been sent by your organisation to Mr JOHN DOE (change as appropriate) accepting that the item was not as originally described, Mr JOHN DOE has provided an affidavit for same which I have attached the details for as attachment four in the document bundle. (The forum member who the E-Mail(s) were sent to will have to write (type) a statement of exactly what happened, sign and date it and send it to the person who will be sending the Letter before Action, the following is the preferred layout and once done it's usually easiest to turn it into a PDF for emailing)
I have thus far spent xxxxx hours as per the schedule which I have attached as document five of the attachments bundle, I will be looking to recover my time spent on this at £xxx per hour as I believe the facts of this case are prima facie based on the evidence including your own E-Mail(s) (if provided by other forum member) but you are unwilling to settle requiring me to pursue action through the courts and wasting valuable court time. I will also be adding to the claim at time of hearing for all extra time I have spent on this before the court makes a judgement.
Now you want to list your time spent and attach the schedule I referred to in my earlier posting and attach it as attachment five to the bundle.
I will also look to recover interest at 8% per year from this day forward on the total amount of my claim. I have included a complete breakdown of all the parts of my claim as attachment six in the attachments bundle.
So the claim should now be broken down similar to this....
The original amount of the item. Including all shipping charges BUT NOT including any accessories you bought at the same time unless you can prove they were specifically only for the TV you bought.
The amount of time you've spent in Total to date, as shown in the schedule attached as attachment five in the bundle.
The costs you have incurred sending documents recorded delivery and ALL the court filing charges if you get to that stage.
The interest at 8% per year.
So for example.....
Lets say you spent £2000 on the TV
Let's say you spent 10 hours at £35 per hour so £350
Let's say you spent £10 total on postage and stationary costs.
Let's say the 'expected' costs of the court filing if you get to that point will be £75.
So add up all the costs (except the court filing as you haven't done that yet)
TV £2000 + Time £350 + Post/Stationary £10 = £2360
£2360 / 365 (days in year) = £6.47 * 8% = 52p per day interest.
So now you should state your claim is....
£2360 which consists of £2000 for the TV including shipping charges. £350 for your time spent on this. £10 for postage and stationary.
If you do not provide a full refund by (DATE 14 days from 3 days after you actually post this letter) then I will have no option but to file court proceedings which will incur extra costs of £75 (CHECK THE AMOUNT) for filing the appropriate paperwork, together with my extra time and interest charges from todays date until the court makes a judgement.
Now clearly attach all the attachments and clearly mark their number (it's 'good practice' to staple each document 'set' together...so staple all of attachment one together, then all of attachment two together and so on) and then write which attachment number it is in pen on the first sheet of that document set, then get a fluorescent marker (YELLOW is usually best) and overmark the attachment number. While this may all appear a bit an*l you want to make it all as clear as possible for the judge who has to go through these things, they're not renowned for their patience so when preparing the documents think of it as laying it out for a five year old.....really keep it that simple, so for example, if you end up with six attachments do a cover sheet for the attachments which lists their number, how many pages in that attachment and what that attachment is for and put it as the first page of the attachments, as I said, try to make everything simple for anyone reading this, judges don't want to have to d*ck around trying to find out what you mean so lay it all out as clearly as possible so even a child could find it.
Now when you've done all this......put it to oneside and don't look at it for three days.
Now pick it up and read through it, slowly, looking for typing errors, grammatical errors and logic errors.
If you're still happy with it put it to oneside again. Now find a friend who doesn't know what this is about and ask them to read it but they CANNOT ask you any questions while reading it and give you their HONEST opinion, not about the arguments of the case but the way you've laid it out, is it easy to understand and does it make sense? If they need to ask you questions about something they've not understood you need to revisit that and rework it.
Once you've gone through this process a couple of times and you're happy you're probably now ready to post it.
2. You are allowed to make a reasonable claim for your time, however you will need to have kept a diary of the amount of time you have spent on this and every action you took and how long it took. That includes reading this forum for example. Time in the courts is measured in 15 minute blocks. DO NOT LIE OR EXAGGERATE YOUR TIME. Just keep it factual and clear.
1st July 2018 - Reading up to page 107 on Samsung Forum KS Refunds Thread - 8;30am - 15 minutes.
1st July 2018 - Drafting letter before action - 9:00am - 60 minutes
and so on, quite literally EVERYTHING you do related to this should be logged and timed, if you don't have a time management system the eastier way to do it is setup a word document with titled columns in a table and email it to yourself, each time you add something new email it to yourself again, that way there's a recorded audit trail showing when you filled things in so you can proce you didn't just fabricate it.
Then in your Letter before Action you should make a REASONABLE charge for your time say £35 per hour and add up all the time you've spent so far and make it clear in the Letter before Action that all time spent going forward will also be added to the claim as well as the interest to date and interest on new charges. DO NOT fall into the trap of thinking that £35 per hour is too high, remember judges are used to lawyers charging £80+ per hour. Also if the judge disagrees with your £35 figure (and they may ask you to justify it to them) they can reduce it or even cancel it, but that's the judges choice.
Justification of the hourly amount can take the form of what your normal salary is, the amount of work you had had to do before you started recording your time spent (do not try to think of time you've already spent and record it, only start from today but of course you can record having to review any documents and evidence bundles you have already prepared), the fact that you'd had to not spend time with your children, the general inconvenience of having to go to court when the evidence available meant the retailer should have settled earlier and so on. It has to be factual and sensible.
One thing to take into account is the Judges take a strong view of REASONABLENESS in these situations and do NOT like things getting to court if they should have been settled before and (within the rules of their discretion) will try to 'punish' the bad actor for not resolving sooner.
Lastly it's likely some of you could get approached to accept an offer that will have a Non Disclosure Agreement (NDA) attached, it's up to you if you want to accept this but if you do accept it you cannot then tell your story anywhere publicly including these forums.
As I've said before....
The Law is not about right and wrong, it's about perserverance and boredom.