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iPlayer HLG/UHD HDR on Samsung’s J and K Series TVs

(Topic created on: 08-03-2018 06:08 PM)
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ewanstancarr
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So, of the nigh on 400 TVs supported in BBC iplayer for the Blue Planet II  HLG episodes none are from Samsung. Oh joy. 

...

Moderator edit: Original thread title was "Blue Planet 2 HLG - No Samsung". With the OP's permission, the title was changed on 12/03/2018 to accurately reflect the dominant theme of the thread as it has progressed. If the reader would like to know more about the HLG format, please check out the BBC's page and FAQ's on it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/high-dynamic-range Thank you, AntS.

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hdmi
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@UHDHDRwrote:

@hdmiwrote:

@UHDHDRwrote:

@hdmiwrote:

@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.


on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

 

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive


Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

 

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 


I do not expect any underwater scene (salty and debris) to have specular highlights or bright colurs i.e. you should not expect or see something that is not trhere in first place!

I have seen clips that show diffrence betyween HLG and HDR, LGE Jazz with lots of lights, on the OLED

 

In correctly tonemapped implementaion this underwater clip should not make huge diffrence between diffrenet formats and sets (dowubt if any scene hits above 400 nits)

 

But at the end of the day if you argue that KS sereis can showing light bleed and haloing in a a dark scene, is more punchier, then nothin's there to stop you :smileylol:


This is a scene from Blue Planet II, which was mastered at 1000 nits. There are plenty of underwater scenes in BPII which have bright specular highlights. Since the KS has over 1000 nits of peak brightness, it does not need to do any tone mapping. So what you see is exactly what the person who graded this intended for you to see. On the LG OLEDs, since they cannot hit 1000 nits, there is tone mapping. The tone mapping on the LG OLEDs is horrendous and very unintelligent. They tone map based on the mastering display max luminance, in this case 1000 nits. So even if a scene only has a MaxCLL (brightest pixel) of 400 nits, the LG OLED will tone map as if the max luminance is 1000 nits - that is, it will compress the entire 1000 nits into whatever the TV supports (750 nits for the 2016 sets, and 900 nits for the 2017 sets) and therefore the 400 nits will be compressed as well. So the brightest part of the image will be lower than what was intended.


Matering does not mean every scene will be 1000 nits, and at least not in this clip, you can sniff the metadata, I have 2017 set (not sure about 2016) which empolys dynamic tonemapping and results are way lot better than standard HDR

 

This scene is well within the max value of the 2017 sets moreover the highlight of this clip is the very fine details - unfortunately I do not have any camera to capture - but I have compared the clips in HDR, HLG and SDR (playing on Sky Q 2TB) - diffrence is huge with SDR but not so much between HLG and HDR - i would've accpted OLED limitation for any other scene but not on this one, same applies to satuaration 

 

Check these out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Jg4-ndUJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipo05SYfqXw

hdmi
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@paul1277wrote:

@UHDHDRwrote:

@hdmiwrote:

@UHDHDRwrote:

@hdmiwrote:

@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.


on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

 

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive


Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

 

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 


I do not expect any underwater scene (salty and debris) to have specular highlights or bright colurs i.e. you should not expect or see something that is not trhere in first place!

I have seen clips that show diffrence betyween HLG and HDR, LGE Jazz with lots of lights, on the OLED

 

In correctly tonemapped implementaion this underwater clip should not make huge diffrence between diffrenet formats and sets (dowubt if any scene hits above 400 nits)

 

But at the end of the day if you argue that KS sereis can showing light bleed and haloing in a a dark scene, is more punchier, then nothin's there to stop you :smileylol:


This is a scene from Blue Planet II, which was mastered at 1000 nits. There are plenty of underwater scenes in BPII which have bright specular highlights. Since the KS has over 1000 nits of peak brightness, it does not need to do any tone mapping. So what you see is exactly what the person who graded this intended for you to see. On the LG OLEDs, since they cannot hit 1000 nits, there is tone mapping. The tone mapping on the LG OLEDs is horrendous and very unintelligent. They tone map based on the mastering display max luminance, in this case 1000 nits. So even if a scene only has a MaxCLL (brightest pixel) of 400 nits, the LG OLED will tone map as if the max luminance is 1000 nits - that is, it will compress the entire 1000 nits into whatever the TV supports (750 nits for the 2016 sets, and 900 nits for the 2017 sets) and therefore the 400 nits will be compressed as well. So the brightest part of the image will be lower than what was intended.


Thats what worries me about the oled, and I am looking at the Sony.

Paul


it is your choice but that argument is flawed as very few scenes hit 1000 nits certainly not this clip (well within comfoirt zone of OLED), secondly 2017 sets have dynamoic tionemapping which give much better results

And do not forget human vison is about perception not absolute mesuremnts

A very hiogh contarst scene with max 700 nits will appear much brighter compared to the inferior contrast of LCD/LED even if it manages to hit 1000 nits - i have comapred both KS9000 and OLED C7

 

I expect KS or any LCD to beat OLED in side by side comparsion in snowy scenes with bright sun or desert, once you view sets in isolation perception comes in to picture and remeber the miost important thing

HDR is mstered at low light/dark conditions e.g. cinema - so it is anyone's guess which set will be more faithful to director's intent!

 

paul1277
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So is it the xf90 or wait for the lg c8?

Sorry I should be use another thread as this a bit off topic.

UHDHDR
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@hdmiwrote:

@UHDHDRwrote:

@hdmiwrote:

@UHDHDRwrote:

@hdmiwrote:

@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.


on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

 

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive


Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

 

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 


I do not expect any underwater scene (salty and debris) to have specular highlights or bright colurs i.e. you should not expect or see something that is not trhere in first place!

I have seen clips that show diffrence betyween HLG and HDR, LGE Jazz with lots of lights, on the OLED

 

In correctly tonemapped implementaion this underwater clip should not make huge diffrence between diffrenet formats and sets (dowubt if any scene hits above 400 nits)

 

But at the end of the day if you argue that KS sereis can showing light bleed and haloing in a a dark scene, is more punchier, then nothin's there to stop you :smileylol:


This is a scene from Blue Planet II, which was mastered at 1000 nits. There are plenty of underwater scenes in BPII which have bright specular highlights. Since the KS has over 1000 nits of peak brightness, it does not need to do any tone mapping. So what you see is exactly what the person who graded this intended for you to see. On the LG OLEDs, since they cannot hit 1000 nits, there is tone mapping. The tone mapping on the LG OLEDs is horrendous and very unintelligent. They tone map based on the mastering display max luminance, in this case 1000 nits. So even if a scene only has a MaxCLL (brightest pixel) of 400 nits, the LG OLED will tone map as if the max luminance is 1000 nits - that is, it will compress the entire 1000 nits into whatever the TV supports (750 nits for the 2016 sets, and 900 nits for the 2017 sets) and therefore the 400 nits will be compressed as well. So the brightest part of the image will be lower than what was intended.


Matering does not mean every scene will be 1000 nits, and at least not in this clip, you can sniff the metadata, I have 2017 set (not sure about 2016) which empolys dynamic tonemapping and results are way lot better than standard HDR

 

This scene is well within the max value of the 2017 sets moreover the highlight of this clip is the very fine details - unfortunately I do not have any camera to capture - but I have compared the clips in HDR, HLG and SDR (playing on Sky Q 2TB) - diffrence is huge with SDR but not so much between HLG and HDR - i would've accpted OLED limitation for any other scene but not on this one, same applies to satuaration 

 

Check these out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Jg4-ndUJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipo05SYfqXw


 

You are still not understanding. We know that not every scene is 1000 nits, but LG's tone mapping behaves as if it is, since their algorithm uses the mastering display max luminance to tone map.

 

Yes, the Active HDR on the 2017 sets helps with that, but it does not fully alleviate it. Also, it's using its own built-in dynamic metadata generation, which drives it further away from the intent of the grader, since the source does not contain dynamic metadata. 

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hdmi
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@UHDHDRwrote:

@hdmiwrote:

@UHDHDRwrote:

@hdmiwrote:

@UHDHDRwrote:

@hdmiwrote:

@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.


on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

 

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive


Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

 

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 


I do not expect any underwater scene (salty and debris) to have specular highlights or bright colurs i.e. you should not expect or see something that is not trhere in first place!

I have seen clips that show diffrence betyween HLG and HDR, LGE Jazz with lots of lights, on the OLED

 

In correctly tonemapped implementaion this underwater clip should not make huge diffrence between diffrenet formats and sets (dowubt if any scene hits above 400 nits)

 

But at the end of the day if you argue that KS sereis can showing light bleed and haloing in a a dark scene, is more punchier, then nothin's there to stop you :smileylol:


This is a scene from Blue Planet II, which was mastered at 1000 nits. There are plenty of underwater scenes in BPII which have bright specular highlights. Since the KS has over 1000 nits of peak brightness, it does not need to do any tone mapping. So what you see is exactly what the person who graded this intended for you to see. On the LG OLEDs, since they cannot hit 1000 nits, there is tone mapping. The tone mapping on the LG OLEDs is horrendous and very unintelligent. They tone map based on the mastering display max luminance, in this case 1000 nits. So even if a scene only has a MaxCLL (brightest pixel) of 400 nits, the LG OLED will tone map as if the max luminance is 1000 nits - that is, it will compress the entire 1000 nits into whatever the TV supports (750 nits for the 2016 sets, and 900 nits for the 2017 sets) and therefore the 400 nits will be compressed as well. So the brightest part of the image will be lower than what was intended.


Matering does not mean every scene will be 1000 nits, and at least not in this clip, you can sniff the metadata, I have 2017 set (not sure about 2016) which empolys dynamic tonemapping and results are way lot better than standard HDR

 

This scene is well within the max value of the 2017 sets moreover the highlight of this clip is the very fine details - unfortunately I do not have any camera to capture - but I have compared the clips in HDR, HLG and SDR (playing on Sky Q 2TB) - diffrence is huge with SDR but not so much between HLG and HDR - i would've accpted OLED limitation for any other scene but not on this one, same applies to satuaration 

 

Check these out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Jg4-ndUJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipo05SYfqXw


 

You are still not understanding. We know that not every scene is 1000 nits, but LG's tone mapping behaves as if it is, since their algorithm uses the mastering display max luminance to tone map.

 

Yes, the Active HDR on the 2017 sets helps with that, but it does not fully alleviate it. Also, it's using its own built-in dynamic metadata generation, which drives it further away from the intent of the grader, since the source does not contain dynamic metadata. 


IlI' explain again

1. Peak brightness of 1000 nits is very rare moreover it should not cause any issues for the fact that this will make difference only in side by side comparison, but in isolation any clipping of higher nits data should be unnoticed due to infinite contrast (yes those bright areas of the frame will not be as per intent of content author)

2. In this particular clip, there's no brightness peak that goes above 400 nits, so OLED is displaying 100% per what author intends

 

In this particular clip If a set is displaying the salty water and debris with peak level exceeding the max level of brightness then it is a flaw

Most important thing I noticed is level of detail in HLG compared to HLG and HDR clip played in SDR via sky Q

As for dynamic tone mapping, it axhachie results closer to creator's intent, as mastering luminance does not apply to every scene so combination of using max Mon luminance per scene preserves the original material, that is why samSams went for HDR10+, the fallacy that just because a set hits 1000 or more nits does not tone mapping is very misleading, because LCD TV struggles in scenes with wide range of luminance (say 50-600), it is a catch 22 situation, if you increase peak brightness then screen artefacts creep in for HDR (content is mastered for viewing under dark conditions), that is why hdr implementation on an LCD set even with fald will struggle to be correct, only time LCD TV will beat oled is when comparing super bright scenes covering whole and in side by side 

But in isolation the clipping will not be noticeable on oled due to perceived brightness due to infinite contrast, human vision is perceptive it does not care about absolute values

Pete1234
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@MC_Bladewrote:

Indeed, are these forums not moderated? The tone of this thread hasn't been good for a while.


It's a good point.  There is a moderator but the only actions I have seen them take is to pop up and crack jokes or tell us that  "Samsung are listening but he can't tell us anything".  There's been no enforcement of the Respect or Staying on Topic rules.

https://eu.community.samsung.com/t5/Community-News-Rules-FAQs/Community-Guidelines/m-p/97#M2

AntS
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As people have repeatedly ignored my polite instructions, I'm closing this thread until further notice. I'll also be taking the time to review it.

hdmi
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@AntSwrote:

As people have repeatedly ignored my polite instructions, I'm closing this thread until further notice. I'll also be taking the time to review it.


I am happy to take down my posts that do not conform to standards, don't want people with legitimate grievances to suffer because of me

AntS
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Hi all. I've reopened the thread.

 

To explain why I closed the thread:

 

I’ve valued and enjoyed the wider informative discussion on HLG etc. – despite it, strictly speaking, being off the original topic of Blue Planet II in HLG – and hoped others would benefit from that too. I maintain the belief that there’s been some very good contributions and discussions from people in the thread that would never have happened if we’d enforced a strict ‘on-topic’ rule.

 

However, it became clear that hostilities between people were taking over – despite the advice given by me and other members on several occasions on how best to discuss things.

 

Those hostilities threatened to remove any value from the thread to anyone. I temporarily closed the thread to protect that value , and for the team here to have a proper review of the thread.

 

So going forwards:

 

  • The topic of discussion for this thread is "iPlayer HLG on Samsung’s J and K Series TVs". I believe that's a fair assessment of the dominant theme in the thread - and what you're most concerned about. With @ewanstancarr's permission, I’d like to rename the thread so that everyone is clear on what the thread is about now.

 

  • If there are questions or topics of conversation that have sprung from the thread so far; or ones that crop up from now on, it's best to create a separate thread for them.
paul1111
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Totally agree with you @AntS.