iPlayer HLG/UHD HDR on Samsung’s J and K Series TVs

[ewanstancarr]

So, of the nigh on 400 TVs supported in BBC iplayer for the Blue Planet II  HLG episodes none are from Samsung. Oh joy. 

...

Moderator edit: Original thread title was "Blue Planet 2 HLG - No Samsung". With the OP's permission, the title was changed on 12/03/2018 to accurately reflect the dominant theme of the thread as it has progressed. If the reader would like to know more about the HLG format, please check out the BBC's page and FAQ's on it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/high-dynamic-range Thank you, AntS.

[paul1277]

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@amokukwrote:
And this is because when the case comes to court they have to have provided me with discovery information. If which i have asked for full internal discussion emails relating to both issues and the decision to discontinue and a full technical explanation of why hlg cant be implemented.

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Yes anything that Samsung advertised before you purchased the TV and that influenced your decision to buy will I think support your case. I also agree no response will not look good. It may end up at court with a no show from Samsung in which you will almost certainly receive the judgement plus costs. 

Paul

[Pete1234]

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@amokukwrote:
And this is because when the case comes to court they have to have provided me with discovery information. If which i have asked for full internal discussion emails relating to both issues and the decision to discontinue and a full technical explanation of why hlg cant be implemented.

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This looks to be the closest we might get to a real explanation of what the issue is with iplayer hlg on the slightly older models.  A lot more useful than the bland "too complicated" fob offs we are being given via 3rd parties.

[amokuk]

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law-and-courts/legal-system/taking-legal-action/small-claims/going...

Samsung have done none of the things expected from them on this page in response to my letter.

[UHDHDR]

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@hdmiwrote:

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@mrticklewrote:
Relevant to the earlier discussion, and beautiful regardless:

From blu-ray.com
"For those who have devices that support HDR on YouTube, check out this demo that's been uploaded in both HDR10 and HLG. A good comparison between the two. HDR10 version has deeper contrast and richer colors, while HLG looks slightly brighter overall, but the colors look a bit washed out in comparison."
IMPORTANT: those descriptions of the colours are someone's OPINION.

HDR10:
SONY STAND NAB SHOW 2018 SAMPLE 1 HDR 10 BT 2020 Color 10 Bit - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0Dz33gtNOs

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HLG:
SONY STAND NAB SHOW 2018 SAMPLE 1 HYBRID GAMMA HDR HLG - YouTube
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ86ThGgXk0

Enjoy.

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I compared the two on LG OLED and could not see any major difference, again I wasnt doing iot side by side so might have missed out minor caveat - the diffrence isnst as huge as LG Jazz in HDR and HLG

I must say this HDR clip is one of the least retina burning I've vere watched and is quite close to directors intent, remember this is all underwater scenery so expect brightness and colurs to be muted (salt water will allow less light tpo pass throaugh than air or clear water) howevre the thing to wtach out is the details like pices of algae and other stuff flaoting around which can be seen in full detail in both clips - if a TV is bumping up specular highlihts then that would be wrong

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The HDR10 version looked noticeably better on my KS8000.

[UHDHDR]

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@hdmiwrote:

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@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.

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on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive

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Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 

[paul1111]

I have been watching a lot of HDR and HLG and SDR Youtube from my KS8000 and through my Shield TV which will not send a Youtube HDR HLG signal today. I am impressed with both HDR10 and HLG from the on board Youtube app. There does seem to be a slight difference between HDR10 and HLG, but nothing bad that I can see. The picture quality with both formats are bright and striking, the colours just bounce out at you. When you watch the HDR and SDR clips you can really see the difference.  I can see where 1080p to 4k is good but add hdr and it becomes a treat to behold. Samsung do have some short comings but I have to admit their picture quality to me, is superb. It so much a shame that Samsung let them selves down with the other issues.

Again these are my own opinions.

[hdmi]

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@UHDHDRwrote:

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@hdmiwrote:

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@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.

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on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive

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Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 

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I do not expect any underwater scene (salty and debris) to have specular highlights or bright colurs i.e. you should not expect or see something that is not trhere in first place!

I have seen clips that show diffrence betyween HLG and HDR, LGE Jazz with lots of lights, on the OLED

In correctly tonemapped implementaion this underwater clip should not make huge diffrence between diffrenet formats and sets (dowubt if any scene hits above 400 nits)

But at the end of the day if you argue that KS sereis can showing light bleed and haloing in a a dark scene, is more punchier, then nothin's there to stop you :smileylol:

[paul1277]

My 65Q9F has gone back and now sitting watching a 32inch Samsung telly!

I think someone asked if I could get Iplayer HLG on the Q9F and yes because the planet earth clip is still on Iplayer in the settings. 

Paul

[UHDHDR]

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@hdmiwrote:

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@UHDHDRwrote:

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@hdmiwrote:

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@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.

---

on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive

---

Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 

---

I do not expect any underwater scene (salty and debris) to have specular highlights or bright colurs i.e. you should not expect or see something that is not trhere in first place!

I have seen clips that show diffrence betyween HLG and HDR, LGE Jazz with lots of lights, on the OLED

In correctly tonemapped implementaion this underwater clip should not make huge diffrence between diffrenet formats and sets (dowubt if any scene hits above 400 nits)

But at the end of the day if you argue that KS sereis can showing light bleed and haloing in a a dark scene, is more punchier, then nothin's there to stop you :smileylol:

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This is a scene from Blue Planet II, which was mastered at 1000 nits. There are plenty of underwater scenes in BPII which have bright specular highlights. Since the KS has over 1000 nits of peak brightness, it does not need to do any tone mapping. So what you see is exactly what the person who graded this intended for you to see. On the LG OLEDs, since they cannot hit 1000 nits, there is tone mapping. The tone mapping on the LG OLEDs is horrendous and very unintelligent. They tone map based on the mastering display max luminance, in this case 1000 nits. So even if a scene only has a MaxCLL (brightest pixel) of 400 nits, the LG OLED will tone map as if the max luminance is 1000 nits - that is, it will compress the entire 1000 nits into whatever the TV supports (750 nits for the 2016 sets, and 900 nits for the 2017 sets) and therefore the 400 nits will be compressed as well. So the brightest part of the image will be lower than what was intended.

[paul1277]

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@UHDHDRwrote:

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@hdmiwrote:

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@UHDHDRwrote:

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@hdmiwrote:

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@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.

---

on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive

---

Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 

---

I do not expect any underwater scene (salty and debris) to have specular highlights or bright colurs i.e. you should not expect or see something that is not trhere in first place!

I have seen clips that show diffrence betyween HLG and HDR, LGE Jazz with lots of lights, on the OLED

In correctly tonemapped implementaion this underwater clip should not make huge diffrence between diffrenet formats and sets (dowubt if any scene hits above 400 nits)

But at the end of the day if you argue that KS sereis can showing light bleed and haloing in a a dark scene, is more punchier, then nothin's there to stop you :smileylol:

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This is a scene from Blue Planet II, which was mastered at 1000 nits. There are plenty of underwater scenes in BPII which have bright specular highlights. Since the KS has over 1000 nits of peak brightness, it does not need to do any tone mapping. So what you see is exactly what the person who graded this intended for you to see. On the LG OLEDs, since they cannot hit 1000 nits, there is tone mapping. The tone mapping on the LG OLEDs is horrendous and very unintelligent. They tone map based on the mastering display max luminance, in this case 1000 nits. So even if a scene only has a MaxCLL (brightest pixel) of 400 nits, the LG OLED will tone map as if the max luminance is 1000 nits - that is, it will compress the entire 1000 nits into whatever the TV supports (750 nits for the 2016 sets, and 900 nits for the 2017 sets) and therefore the 400 nits will be compressed as well. So the brightest part of the image will be lower than what was intended.

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Thats what worries me about the oled, and I am looking at the Sony.

Paul