iPlayer HLG/UHD HDR on Samsung’s J and K Series TVs

[ewanstancarr]

So, of the nigh on 400 TVs supported in BBC iplayer for the Blue Planet II  HLG episodes none are from Samsung. Oh joy. 

...

Moderator edit: Original thread title was "Blue Planet 2 HLG - No Samsung". With the OP's permission, the title was changed on 12/03/2018 to accurately reflect the dominant theme of the thread as it has progressed. If the reader would like to know more about the HLG format, please check out the BBC's page and FAQ's on it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/high-dynamic-range Thank you, AntS.

[mrtickle]

---

@Sam-Knp wrote:

"So long as your next TV purchase supports these technologies (looking for an Ultra HD Premium certification is a good way to go), we reckon you won't be kicking yourself in six month's time when the next batch of sets arrive.."

http://www.techradar.com/news/best-tv-uk#article-body

how wrong is this statement? we all got the "Ultra HD Premium Certification" - still no future proofing!

---

UHD Premium is a start but doesn't go far enough. Leaving aside changes to apps and launching services promised in the past, let's talk about the picture quality aspects of the UHD Premium label.

Quote from https://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1452004019

In order to receive the UHD Alliance Premium Logo, the device must meet or exceed the following specifications:

Image Resolution: 3840x2160

Color Bit Depth: 10-bit signal

Color Palette (Wide Color Gamut)

Signal Input: BT.2020 color representation

Display Reproduction: More than 90% of P3 colors

High Dynamic Range

SMPTE ST2084 EOTF

A combination of peak brightness and black level either: - More than 1000 nits peak brightness and less than 0.05 nits black level OR - More than 540 nits peak brightness and less than 0.0005 nits black level

(the last section is the "fudge factor" so that both LCDs which can get very bright but can't do full blacks, and OLEDs which can do full black but really can't cut it with brightness that HDR needs, can both get the badge).

Now, the key point here is that just specifying a number of 90% of P3 (which is actually only a little bit more than rec709 which SDR uses anyway!) is not enough. It says nothing about colour accuracy. The industry expect Vincent Teoh of HDTVtest raised this in his review of the Hisense NU9700 HDR TV last year.

On paper, it met the UHD Premium specs. But when he tried to calibrate it, to get an accurate picture, it was hopeless. It just couldn't be done because HiSense hadn't designed it to be in any way accurate or to give a picture which reproduced the original signal. They have designed it to tick all the boxes and get the UHD Premium logo to use in all their sales literature. It's a horrible appalling TV - yet it has the UHD Premium spec, so it gets the badge, and there's nothing anyone can do about it 😞 . In his words, the colours were fake and cartoonish and there's nothing that could be adjusted to fix it. 

See here: whole thing worth watching, main comments at 16 minutes and 19 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBtIBq0hmVs

So, be very very careful. Just because it has the UHD Premium badge and it can do 1,000 nits, does  NOT make it in any way a good TV. Even if it gets brilliant support and upgrades for years and years.

[BAMozzy]

UHD Premium may be just a set of figures but as every other TV, doesn't mean that its the 'best' you can get.

Even if you can 'calibrate' for accuracy, there are TV's that will have a much greater colour volume - probably the most important aspect as a greater colour volume requires less tone-mapping overall - and therefore 'could' deliver a better, more optimal HDR experience.

Like we saw with SDR though, there are TV's that may well have 100% of the REC709 gamut, it doesn't mean that they are delivering the 'best' PQ or even the most 'accurate' colours. I really don't see how HDR or UHD Premium is any different. Of course the XE9005 is better than the UHD Premium certified Hisense but wouldn't pass UHD Premium specs. However, there are UHD Premium TV's that are better than XE9005 - especially with displaying HDR content.

There are no 'standards' for tone mapping so some may prefer TV's that deliver a higher APL (Average Picture Luminescence) than others but at the expense of some clipping of the high-end bright detail. Some may prefer to keep all the detail but may end up with a lower APL. Because there is no fixed standard though, even if you do have a TV that can be accurately calibrated and even pass UHD Premium requirements, some will be prefered over others - even if they are virtually the same specs. UHD Premium specs are the 'MINIMUM' required to deliver HDR but as with everything, there is more to consider than just meeting some numeric specs. I know that UHD Premium doesn't specify how 'accurate' a TV must be after calibration but again, these are 'minimum' quantities and not necessarily indicative of the quality of the PQ.

HDR10+ and DV will adjust the tone mapping algorithm to try and 'optimise' the TV to its limited Colour Volume. The bigger the colour volume though, the less need for tone mapping and less need for Dynamic Metadata. A 700 nit OLED for example will benefit more from Dynamic Metadata than a 3000nit TV. The 3000nit TV can, and probably does show much more of the content at 1:1 than the 700nit TV does - even with Static Metadata. It maybe that the Static Metadata determines that the mapping follows the curve up to 1400nits and then falls off to fit 4000nit content into a 3000nit TV. Therefore, a 1400nit scene is displayed 1:1 but on the OLED, that scene may only map upto 300nits 1:1 and then tone map the 300-1400nits down in to 300-700nits. Obviously, the 3000nit TV is delivering a much better optimal picture with Static Metadata (all mapped 1:1) than the OLED with Dynamic Metadata. A 4000nit TV shouldn't need any tone mapping at all - until we get content mastered at 10000nits - so cerainly won't need HDR10+ and DV only adds a better bit depth at that point as the Dynamic Metadata would know that the TV is capable of mapping all the content 1:1 and so follow the same PQ EOTF Curve. 

Even then though, Some TV's will be better than others - particularly at the 'Black' level. Some may also have wider colour gamuts, better colour accuracy out of the box, less error after calibration, better motion handling etc. So even if you do get a TV that doesn't need to tone map HDR, there are other factors that will determine whether its the 'best'. It would obviously pass UHD Premium standard but also should be significantly better than a TV offering 1000nits, 0.05nit blacks, 90% DCI-P3 gamut etc that's needed for certification. To reiterate, these are 'minimum' standards but not the 'optimum' so there are TV's that can and will blow away the TV's we have seen released to date.

Going back to OLEDs, the reason they are delivering 'superior' HDR is because they are much more consistent. LCD's can look absolutely stunning - blowing away OLEDs in some bright scenes - especially those with little/no blacks - but then you get a scene with a Bright sharply defined edge next to a solid Black except that black is no longer Black but more grey - except on OLEDs. Its that inconsistency that affects LCD's. OLEDs may not be as spactacular in bright scenes, but that consistency and accuracy is what gives them the edge. They though, have significantly lower colour volume and therefore need much more tone-mapping.

Even with OLEDs though, we have seen different tone mapping approaches from each manufacturer - even though they all use an LG Panel. The different approach as well as the electronics behind the panel, the better picture processing, motion handling etc can make essentially the same TV (spec wise) have different PQ so I really don't understand why something like a UHD Premium Badge as being indicative of the same PQ quality as every other UHD Premium Badge TV's. Even before HDR, when 'every' TV could deliver the full SDR standards, there was a difference in quality.

[hdmi]

---

@paul1111 wrote:

I await a response from the ASA and  if it is upheld then that strengthens every ones case for refund for misrepresentation because the retailers will have no defence. What Curry's seem to be doing could be seen as intimidation which I think is illegal. So retailers we are not going to be intimidated and will explore every avenue that is legal to resolve this.

Paul

https://www.which.co.uk/tools/faulty-goods-complaint-tool/
https://www.asa.org.uk/about-asa-and-cap/the-work-we-do/what-we-cover.html#Inside

---

I am just complaining about smartthings as this was advertised by the retailers, ASA deals only with adverts not press release

Please keep the complaint focused on that!

[paul1277]

---

@hdmi wrote:

---

@paul1111 wrote:

I await a response from the ASA and  if it is upheld then that strengthens every ones case for refund for misrepresentation because the retailers will have no defence. What Curry's seem to be doing could be seen as intimidation which I think is illegal. So retailers we are not going to be intimidated and will explore every avenue that is legal to resolve this.

Paul

https://www.which.co.uk/tools/faulty-goods-complaint-tool/
https://www.asa.org.uk/about-asa-and-cap/the-work-we-do/what-we-cover.html#Inside

---

I am just complaining about smartthings as this was advertised by the retailers, ASA deals only with adverts not press release

Please keep the complaint focused on that!

---

I put 2 complaints in one against Samsung covering all points, and one against the retailers covering just the smart connect.

Paul.

[JTE]

Finally a honest answer from Samsung. Having 1 more try with Fenwicks of Newcastle then it’s off to court.

​
Dear Mr. Ellsbury,

Thank you for your email. Your customer reference number is **********.

We appreciate your time in contacting us for assistance and we sincerely apologise for the delay in response.

In regard to your concern, please refer below for the answers/replies to your queries/concerns raised:

1. Samsung has not made any promise that an Evolution Kit will be made available every 3 years. We did say we intend to, but there is no guarantee. Please refer below for Samsung UK final stance/disclaimer on the Evolution Kit that is also available at the Samsung UK website (samsung.com/uk):

Samsung does not guarantee that an Evolution Kit will be launched every year, or each time new Smart features are launched. Samsung intends to launch at least one Evolution Kit in the three year period following the launch of the compatible TV. Evolution Kits launched after the three year period may not be compatible. The Evolution Kit will enhance each compatible TV’s Smart features so they are materially the same as those included on equivalent TVs launched in the same year as the Evolution Kit. Only the software and processing hardware will be upgraded; other hardware including the TV panel will not be upgraded. Existing apps and functions previously installed or available on the upgraded TV may not work after the Evolution Kit is installed.

1.1. There are no current plans to launch Samsung Evolution Kits (latest was in 2015 (SEK-3500U). Should there be any updates, Samsung will keep us updated.

2. Samsung has no plans at this time to enable HLG version of BBC i-Player or streaming services on 2014, 2015 and 2016 UHD TV or UHD Blu-ray players. We have enabled all 2016 UHD TVs (KU and KS) with UHD/HDR/HLG for Broadcast Services as promised (Ensure latest firmware is installed). It must be noted this does not include UHD/HDR/HLG content delivered via the BBC i-Player Application or streaming content as this is not a Broadcast Service. HLG via BBC iPlayer is available on our 2017 MU and QLED TVs. Should there be ny updates on this matter, Samsung will keep us and our customers updated. On purchasing a newer model, it is a customer's decision to do so.

Thank you for your patience and understanding on this matter.

Should you need further assistance with your Samsung products, feel free to contact us back and we are more than willing to help. You may also call us on 0330 726 7864 (UK) or 0818 717 100 (Ireland). We are open from Monday – Friday | 8:00 am to 8:00 pm, Saturday | 9:00 am to 6:00 pm. Have a wonderful day.

If you require additional support, you can find How-To videos, answers to your questions and other useful information about Samsung products on our Support website www.samsung.com/uk/support.

Kind regards,

www.samsung.com/uk/support
Twitter Facebook

---------- Original Message ----------

From:John 
Sent: Thu 18. Jan 2018, 18:01:58
To: seuk.contactus@partner.samsung.com
Subject: UE55JS9000

Dear Samsung

The evolution range of TVs came with a promise to introduce a new Evolution Box every 3 years to keep TVs future proofed.

It is specifically on this basis that I purchased a TV with the 3500 evolution kit.

1. As my TV is now over 3 years old, please can you advise when a upgraded kit will be made available and if not please advise that there are no plans.

2. If there are no plans to introduce an upgraded evolution kit within the 3 year promised are there any current plans to upgrade my TV with the latest HLG streaming services or am I advised to purchase a newer model.

I would be grateful for a honest answer to both questions.

Regards
John Ellsbury

Sent from my iPhone

On 21 Dec 2017, at 16:26, Samsung Support < seuk.contactus@partner.samsung.com > wrote:

[BAMozzy]

Without quoting the above post and having such a large block of text, this in reply to Samsungs response above.

Point 1: re SEK. I appreciate that Samsung stated the Evolution Kit was 'intended' to be updated although no guarantee that Samsung would 'indefinitely' offer a new SEK every few years +. However, they also implied that buying a 4k TV from Samsung would at least be 'future proof' for the immediate future - and more than just 18months. I also appreciate that things moved on relatively quickly with HDR, HLG arriving and the early 4k TV's were never going to do these formats justice. I was one of those though that bought the 55HU7500 with the 'promise' it would be 'future proof'. By 2016 though, it was clear that NO Evolution Kit was going to turn that TV into a 4k HDR capable TV - even if it let HDR content play, it would still not be able to deliver a 'quality' HDR image as it didn't have a wide colour gamut or the necessary contrast. As the TV's after this though came with a One Connect Box which is not that dissimilar from a SEK, Samsung 'could' make updated OCB's for models that use OCB's to bring the 'older' TV's forward. That is assuming its an issue with Tizen as to why we are not getting up to date versions of Apps or supporting the newer HLG/HDR10+ formats fully.

2. Granted Samsung only stated HLG broadcasts BUT then USB HLG demo's as well as youtube HLG demo's also work. Samsung never stated that only 'specific' HLG would work and insinuated that the TV would support HLG 'fully'. HLG itself is a single standard - much like HDR10 is. If a TV can support HLG, you expect it to work with any HLG enabled device and with any HLG content. I would fully expect HLG to work on an external device with on-demand HLG content. If it doesn't work with something like SkyQ for example which could have HLG broadcasts as well as on-demand, then there is something fundamentally wrong.

Whatever reason that Samsung are refusing to update iPlayer - not just for HLG but for 4k too is still not being explained though. A flat refusal to update the TV's with no 'valid' reason is unbelievable in this day and age. Its that which is more of an issue than the App itself. If Samsung were to explain the reasons why, maybe we as owners would be more accepting but to flat out refuse, with NO valid reason makes it look as if Samsung are purely at fault, obviously not concerned with its customers and, coupled with factors like the lack of SEK, making it look as if Samsung really aren't building products to last. All that means is that their products go out of date much quicker and pushers their customers onto alternative, longer lasting and therefore 'better value' options instead. No-one is going to spend £2k+ every couple of years over and over again, not when they spend £2k on an alternative, equally as well specced and similar quality but built to last and supported for 5yrs+. What's the point of offering 5yr warranties or 10yr screen burn protection if your TV's are out of date in less than 2yrs?

As I stated, Samsung have implied that their products are more future proof yet in my experience, they are out of date in less than 2yrs. This is not just once but now twice and both TV's cost me nearly £2K. It was also implied that HLG and HDR10+ would be added to the KS at the very least. Again, two formats with a singular premise on how they achieve or enhance HDR. There isn't HLG type 1, type 2 or type 3, there isn't HDR10+ type a, type b or type c and as such, support should not be limted what source its coming from - whether broadcast, streamed or via some HLG/HDR10+ enabled external device. Support is either there or it isn't!! I don't expect to plug in a HDR10 enabled external device and find that my HDR10 enabled TV doesn't support that version of HDR10 so I don't expect that to happen with HLG OR HDR10+ regardless of source.  Like I said, if I SkyQ adds HLG or I buy a Bluray player that supports HDR10+, I expect those to work on my KS as Samsung assured me that HLG and HDR10+ support will be added. I don't expect the Sky broadcasts to work for HLG and not their on-demand HLG - its using the same standard to generate HDR. Same with HDR10+ - I don't expect Amazon's streamed HDR10+ to work but not some HDR10+ bluray content because both will be using the same Dynamic Metadata to enhance HDR - if it works from one, it should work for all!!! Not once did Samsung impy that HLG or HDR10+ support would come with 'conditions' or only work with one specific format (not that HLG or HDR10+ have multiple different formats).

What makes it worse though is Samsungs reluctance to give valid reasons for their decisions. The SEK decision could be that the TV's that the SEK's were built for are at the maximum they can handle/deliver - that it doesn't make sense to bring out a 'new' SEK because the feature set would add nothing that the SEK-3500 doesn't bring and that the TV's can actually display - that at least gives a valid reason but Samsung refuse to comment.

Where is the valid reason why they came to the decision not to update the iPlayer app as clearly the TV's are capable of at least UHD and, as stated, using a single format HLG to deliver HDR content. The same Hybrid Log Gamma will be used whether its broadcast or streamed so either a TV supports HLG or it doesn't. To me it seems like stubborness for whatever reason that Samsung are refusing to update the iPlayer app and coming out with BS like 'broadcast vs on-demand' HLG despite the fact that both are using the exact same method of using HLG to create the HDR image. Is it because of finances? Is it because you want people to upgrade? If its the latter, I doubt many will be looking at replacing with another Samsung so all that does is push your customers away and into the welcoming arms of your competitors.

[paul1277]

---

@BAMozzy wrote:

Without quoting the above post and having such a large block of text, this in reply to Samsungs response above.

Point 1: re SEK. I appreciate that Samsung stated the Evolution Kit was 'intended' to be updated although no guarantee that Samsung would 'indefinitely' offer a new SEK every few years +. However, they also implied that buying a 4k TV from Samsung would at least be 'future proof' for the immediate future - and more than just 18months. I also appreciate that things moved on relatively quickly with HDR, HLG arriving and the early 4k TV's were never going to do these formats justice. I was one of those though that bought the 55HU7500 with the 'promise' it would be 'future proof'. By 2016 though, it was clear that NO Evolution Kit was going to turn that TV into a 4k HDR capable TV - even if it let HDR content play, it would still not be able to deliver a 'quality' HDR image as it didn't have a wide colour gamut or the necessary contrast. As the TV's after this though came with a One Connect Box which is not that dissimilar from a SEK, Samsung 'could' make updated OCB's for models that use OCB's to bring the 'older' TV's forward. That is assuming its an issue with Tizen as to why we are not getting up to date versions of Apps or supporting the newer HLG/HDR10+ formats fully.

2. Granted Samsung only stated HLG broadcasts BUT then USB HLG demo's as well as youtube HLG demo's also work. Samsung never stated that only 'specific' HLG would work and insinuated that the TV would support HLG 'fully'. HLG itself is a single standard - much like HDR10 is. If a TV can support HLG, you expect it to work with any HLG enabled device and with any HLG content. I would fully expect HLG to work on an external device with on-demand HLG content. If it doesn't work with something like SkyQ for example which could have HLG broadcasts as well as on-demand, then there is something fundamentally wrong.

Whatever reason that Samsung are refusing to update iPlayer - not just for HLG but for 4k too is still not being explained though. A flat refusal to update the TV's with no 'valid' reason is unbelievable in this day and age. Its that which is more of an issue than the App itself. If Samsung were to explain the reasons why, maybe we as owners would be more accepting but to flat out refuse, with NO valid reason makes it look as if Samsung are purely at fault, obviously not concerned with its customers and, coupled with factors like the lack of SEK, making it look as if Samsung really aren't building products to last. All that means is that their products go out of date much quicker and pushers their customers onto alternative, longer lasting and therefore 'better value' options instead. No-one is going to spend £2k+ every couple of years over and over again, not when they spend £2k on an alternative, equally as well specced and similar quality but built to last and supported for 5yrs+. What's the point of offering 5yr warranties or 10yr screen burn protection if your TV's are out of date in less than 2yrs?

As I stated, Samsung have implied that their products are more future proof yet in my experience, they are out of date in less than 2yrs. This is not just once but now twice and both TV's cost me nearly £2K. It was also implied that HLG and HDR10+ would be added to the KS at the very least. Again, two formats with a singular premise on how they achieve or enhance HDR. There isn't HLG type 1, type 2 or type 3, there isn't HDR10+ type a, type b or type c and as such, support should not be limted what source its coming from - whether broadcast, streamed or via some HLG/HDR10+ enabled external device. Support is either there or it isn't!! I don't expect to plug in a HDR10 enabled external device and find that my HDR10 enabled TV doesn't support that version of HDR10 so I don't expect that to happen with HLG OR HDR10+ regardless of source.  Like I said, if I SkyQ adds HLG or I buy a Bluray player that supports HDR10+, I expect those to work on my KS as Samsung assured me that HLG and HDR10+ support will be added. I don't expect the Sky broadcasts to work for HLG and not their on-demand HLG - its using the same standard to generate HDR. Same with HDR10+ - I don't expect Amazon's streamed HDR10+ to work but not some HDR10+ bluray content because both will be using the same Dynamic Metadata to enhance HDR - if it works from one, it should work for all!!! Not once did Samsung impy that HLG or HDR10+ support would come with 'conditions' or only work with one specific format (not that HLG or HDR10+ have multiple different formats).

What makes it worse though is Samsungs reluctance to give valid reasons for their decisions. The SEK decision could be that the TV's that the SEK's were built for are at the maximum they can handle/deliver - that it doesn't make sense to bring out a 'new' SEK because the feature set would add nothing that the SEK-3500 doesn't bring and that the TV's can actually display - that at least gives a valid reason but Samsung refuse to comment.

Where is the valid reason why they came to the decision not to update the iPlayer app as clearly the TV's are capable of at least UHD and, as stated, using a single format HLG to deliver HDR content. The same Hybrid Log Gamma will be used whether its broadcast or streamed so either a TV supports HLG or it doesn't. To me it seems like stubborness for whatever reason that Samsung are refusing to update the iPlayer app and coming out with BS like 'broadcast vs on-demand' HLG despite the fact that both are using the exact same method of using HLG to create the HDR image. Is it because of finances? Is it because you want people to upgrade? If its the latter, I doubt many will be looking at replacing with another Samsung so all that does is push your customers away and into the welcoming arms of your competitors.

---

Long but well worth reading, well written, and right to the point, because all we want is Samsung to come good on their promises which they did advertise. It's not as if we are asking for something that was never offered for the 2016 set's. And as you say their silence I think shows their utter contempt for their UK customers and retailers. I would never recommend Samsung after this.

Paul

[BAMozzy]

---

@paul1277 wrote:

Long but well worth reading, well written, and right to the point, because all we want is Samsung to come good on their promises which they did advertise. It's not as if we are asking for something that was never offered for the 2016 set's. And as you say their silence I think shows their utter contempt for their UK customers and retailers. I would never recommend Samsung after this.

Paul

---

Long it maybe but I would rather give too much information than leave too much room for mis-interpretation or lead to more questions than answers.

Samsung assured us that HLG and HDR10+ would come and, like HDR10, are singular formats for delivering HDR. There isn't 3 or 4 methods of creating a HLG HDR image, there isn't multiple different methods and coding language for Dynamic Metadata HDR10+. These are singular universal formats. You won't get some HDR10+ working on Samsung whilst the others only work on Panasonic - HDR10+ should work in exactly the same way regardless - same with HLG.

Whatever aspect people here feel hard-done by, miss-sold etc, virtually ALL could be signifficantly improved by effective, honest communication. Had Samsung came out and stated that 'SmartThings will now not be offered on 2016 TV's for whatever valid reason, whilst I am sure some would still be upset, they may have a better understanding of why and may even been more accepting of that. The same applies with HLG - although I stiill think that may just be with the iPlayer App rather than HLG itself as its not even being updated to UHD either. Being open and honest, keeping their customers informed, would be far better. Its Samsung that were happy to communicate that both HLG and HDR10+ would come to the KS series and, as these are singular formats, implied that these would be FULLY supported. Yet now its come to the 'business' end, seem very reluctant to communicate and justify their decision.

Its not just these issues though that will impact on their customers but any future 'communication' from Samsung. Do they really think we can trust anything they state now? In the last 4yrs+ I can think of multiple claims by Samsung, multiple promises that have failed to materialise or be implemented as well as they implied.

Its like a car company promising that their 'new' electric car will be supported, will get updates that significantly improve the range and reduce the charging time etc but a year later, the range was improved but only by a few miles and only if you live in the US and charging is a bit faster but only if you use a certain type of 'electricity'. The promised support that would enable the cars to keep pace with current models - better GPS Sat Nav App for example that all the rivals got but not this car for no apparent reason. Those owners too wouldn't believe the car manufacturer the next time they make claims and promises and go with the others that have much higher customer satisfaction as well as company's that have much better, more honest and open communication!

[mrtickle]

---

@BAMozzy wrote:

Without quoting the above post and having such a large block of text, this in reply to Samsungs response above.

2. Granted Samsung only stated HLG broadcasts BUT then USB HLG demo's as well as youtube HLG demo's also work. Samsung never stated that only 'specific' HLG would work and insinuated that the TV would support HLG 'fully'. HLG itself is a single standard - much like HDR10 is. If a TV can support HLG, you expect it to work with any HLG enabled device and with any HLG content. I would fully expect HLG to work on an external device with on-demand HLG content. If it doesn't work with something like SkyQ for example which could have HLG broadcasts as well as on-demand, then there is something fundamentally wrong.

Whatever reason that Samsung are refusing to update iPlayer - not just for HLG but for 4k too is still not being explained though. A flat refusal to update the TV's with no 'valid' reason is unbelievable in this day and age. Its that which is more of an issue than the App itself. If Samsung were to explain the reasons why, maybe we as owners would be more accepting but to flat out refuse, with NO valid reason makes it look as if Samsung are purely at fault, obviously not concerned with its customers and, coupled with factors like the lack of SEK, making it look as if Samsung really aren't building products to last. All that means is that their products go out of date much quicker and pushers their customers onto alternative, longer lasting and therefore 'better value' options instead. No-one is going to spend £2k+ every couple of years over and over again, not when they spend £2k on an alternative, equally as well specced and similar quality but built to last and supported for 5yrs+. What's the point of offering 5yr warranties or 10yr screen burn protection if your TV's are out of date in less than 2yrs?

As I stated, Samsung have implied that their products are more future proof yet in my experience, they are out of date in less than 2yrs. This is not just once but now twice and both TV's cost me nearly £2K. It was also implied that HLG and HDR10+ would be added to the KS at the very least. Again, two formats with a singular premise on how they achieve or enhance HDR. There isn't HLG type 1, type 2 or type 3, there isn't HDR10+ type a, type b or type c and as such, support should not be limted what source its coming from - whether broadcast, streamed or via some HLG/HDR10+ enabled external device. Support is either there or it isn't!! I don't expect to plug in a HDR10 enabled external device and find that my HDR10 enabled TV doesn't support that version of HDR10 so I don't expect that to happen with HLG OR HDR10+ regardless of source.  Like I said, if I SkyQ adds HLG or I buy a Bluray player that supports HDR10+, I expect those to work on my KS as Samsung assured me that HLG and HDR10+ support will be added. I don't expect the Sky broadcasts to work for HLG and not their on-demand HLG - its using the same standard to generate HDR. Same with HDR10+ - I don't expect Amazon's streamed HDR10+ to work but not some HDR10+ bluray content because both will be using the same Dynamic Metadata to enhance HDR - if it works from one, it should work for all!!! Not once did Samsung impy that HLG or HDR10+ support would come with 'conditions' or only work with one specific format (not that HLG or HDR10+ have multiple different formats).

---

I agree. 

Samsung's promise to upgrade us to HLG did not have any caveats, loopholes or opt-outs.

Every time they repeat the same reply ("as promised"), and lie about it pretending they only promised to deliver HLG support in a small fraction of the TV's capabilities - every time they repeat this bare-faced lie - it is not acceptable.

Every time Samsung uses this lie in a reply to someone, it is incumbent on all of us to push back and point out that they are lieing.

[paul1277]

Hi again will you be putting that into AV Forum's, as I think it says clearly the general feeling here.

Paul