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Original topic:

HW-K650 and Two R1 Wirelss Speakers in 5.1 With KS7000 TV

(Topic created on: 25/06/17 11:34)
podavies
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When using the K650 sound bar and two R1 Wireless speakers in surround sound mode over wifi with the latest firmware, The quailty of the sound K650 drops, sounds very muddy. As soon as you use the sound bar on it own, the sound bar improves. this is happening for a quite a few users.

 

can you help.

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Robbienobs
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Gives full details here

 

https://hdclub.org/details.php?id=15777

 

Might as well be Japanese as far as I'm concerned 

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scott
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Plays correctly from tv's youtube app with wi-fi surround setup by tv.

 

 Was just saying that I couldnt get it to play correctly through hdmi from bluray player to tv with tv wi-fi surround setup.

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scott
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If you have dolby digital available as an audio format while that "lpcm" clip is playing then it is dolby digital not lpcm.

 

If it is dolby digital I dont understand why I cant play it from bluray players youtube app and send it to tv hdmi bitstream unprocessed. 

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simon_w
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OK Everyone - here is a test file to play with:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1awk1cj45aksurq/Samsung%20Surround%20%26%20Sub%20Test.mp4?dl=0

 

Download the file - put it on a memory stick - and play it from the TVs USB slot.

 

It is encoded as Dolby Digital 5.1 and contains two sequences of pink noise.

 

In the first sequence the pink noise is sent only to the main channel and is not sent to the sub channel.

 

In the second sequence the pink noise is sent to both the main and sub channels.

 

On my system it is pretty clear what is going on.

 

In the first sequence the active crossover of the K650 is sending some signal to the sub from the front left and front right channels only but not the centre or the rears

 

In the second sequence the sub receives signal correctly for all channels.

 

What does this mean in practice?

 

Well, if the source is authored with a discrete sub channel created by the mix engineer the soundtrack will play correctly.  But if the source relies on sending full range signals to the 5 channels but no separate signal for the sub, only the front left and right will gain sub support, leaving the centre weak.

 

Is this a real world problem - well I think that members of this group have shown that it can be an issue on specific mixes but not everything.  I have yet to hear a problem on any of my DVDs or BluRays but in truth I havent been looking for it.

 

The fact that the MS650 apears to handle this better suggests to me that samsung are fully aware of the limitations of the K650...

 

 

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leelazer
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Thanks Simon

 

I will give it a go.  So basically a real 5.1 track that has a discrete sub channel to compliment the other channels will.play fine. This might be why I haven't noticed a problem. All my movies are DD 5.1 or DTS with the exception of my new 4K blurays that are atmos. New soundbar in the future will be needed. I use kodi to transcode my DTS tracks to DD to get around the K650's lack of support. 

 

Lee

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Bryantay
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Here is the easiest way for me to demonstrate the lack of sub support on the center channel.

 
If you have Netflix, search for a movie called “test pattern”. This movie plays a test sound from low to high through each of the five channels. If you place your hand on the subwoofer you will feel it vibrate while the sound is played on the left and right channels during the lows. But on the center channel you feel and hear nothing from the subwoofer during the lows. You would expect it should react the same way on the left, right AND center channels.
 
Can anyone else confirm if they can feel or hear sub support on the center channel while playing the same Test Pattern movie? 

 

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NotSamsung
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simon_w wrote:

 

In the first sequence the active crossover of the K650 is sending some signal to the sub from the front left and front right channels only but not the centre or the rears

 

In the second sequence the sub receives signal correctly for all channels.

 

What does this mean in practice?

 

 

 

 


For me, in the first sequence, the K650 is sending some signal to the sub from the front left and front right channels only,  but not the centre or the rears.

 

Are you saying that K650 should not do this - there should be no sub for left & right channels?  Is this a defect that Samsung should fix? 

 

How would this fix my issue (my center channel is tinny on DD 5.1 movies)?  If Samsung removes the sub from left and right channel then surely this H650 would sound cr****er than now.   What is needed is for the sub to be active when the center plays.  

 

 

 

 

 

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NotSamsung
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@simon_w wrote:

My setup is no HDMI or optical - just WiFi to the soundbar and R1s but with a Samsung Hub

 

Netfix, Amazon Prime, YouTube via the TVs apps and Live TV (so oldschool!)

Cheap Smsung BluRay player (without the extra wifi ability)

4k BT TV  box over HDMI

 

What is worth noting is that both the picture and the sound settings on the TV are per source so if youre using bitstream and dolby digital you need to revisit the settings for each source and check what they are...

 

What I understand is that the HDMI Audio Format settings have no effect on a soundbar conneceted over WiFi

HDMI Audio Format | PCM sends uncompressed stereo (2.0) over HDMI (and also over the optical connection)

HDMI Audio Format | Bitsream sends compressed multichannel audio (either Dolby or DTS) over HDMI

 

Audio Format is the one that effects the Soundbar over WiFi

Audio Format | PCM sends uncompressed stereo (2.0) to the soundbar

Audio Format | Dolby Digital sends a compressed dolby formatted bitstream that can be 2.0 or 5.1 depending on the source.

On my TV the other two options of DTS and DTS Neo 2:5 are greyed out

 

To reiterate what I have said before - but with careful use of pseudo not faux 😉

 

If you are set on Audio Format | PCM the soundbar will create a pseudo surround presentation based on the stereo content.  This always seems to have plenty of bass in the centre channel.

 

If you are set on Audio Format | Dolby Digital and the source is stereo (2.0) you will get stereo on the soundbar with no reprocessing.  This always seems to have plenty of bass too.

 

If you are set on Audio Format | Dolby Digital and the source is surround (5.1) you will get discrete surround on the soundbar with no reprocessing.  This may show a lack of bass in the centre channel depending how the Dolby Digital bitstream is authored and how the soundbar interprets this.

 

It is unusual to only put dialogue in the centre channel - normally it is spread between L C R equally and will appear as if in the centre.  This is a legacy from when 4.0 was a common set up (no centre channel and no sub).  

 

In the authoring you have to specify what type of speaker the surround mix is intended for - small / medium / large - this changes the way the sub channel is used as often instead of being sent as a discrete channel it is entirely derived in the surround processor.  We dont know exactly how the K650 handles the sub channel but it would appear that it is predominantly derived from the front left and front right channels and not from the centre channel - this is apparent on the test file that Lee circulated a while back - lots of sub on L/R - none on C or surround L/R - but I'm still not convinced this is a real world problem as I have yet to hear actual programme that is weak in centre dialogue...

 

Comparing the PCM setting to the Dolby Digital setting is like comparing apples and pears - the overall volume will be different as will the surround presentation - and percived bass is very level dependent.

 

Similarly comparing the K650/R1s with another surround setup is tricky because we dont know how the two systems differ in the way the sub channel is derived.

 

What I will try and do over the weekend is author a short Dolby Digital test file myself which might help shed some light on this - one where I can control from the metadata how the sub behaves... I will circulate this for others to try out if I can get it to work !!


That's not what my Samsung TV manual says.

 

The manual says:

 

HDMI Audio Format.

Sets the format of the audio input signal so that it is suitable for the external device connected to one of the TV's HDMI ports.  

 

Audio Format. 

Selects tbe digital audio output (S/PDIF) format.  The available formats depend on the input source.

 

Oh,  the obscurantism.....

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Peejay84
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Bryantay, yeah Netflix test pattern is also a good way to demonstrate the issue!

Simon, thank you so much. This proves my point that the issue is not related to dolby but it's a broken internal active crossover.

Moreover it sounds like artificially cut signal so I'm quite sure the center channel actually undergoes active crossover but the low frequencies never reach the sub.
I'm quite sure it's not a real life limitation, it's just a bug or it's broken, but I'm gonna find out for sure.

Gonna put the file on a pendrive and test it with other samsung 3.1 soundbars that use wifi subwoofer instead of dedicated bass speakers like k550 or ms 550 from the new series.

I hope I can still find k550 somewhere, it's just k650 but without access to multiroom app and rears done my swa 8000. If it works fine it will be a clear indication that k650 is broken :winking-face:

As for real content, I notice it in everything I watch. I guess tv shows and movies on streaming services are mastered the second way.
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leelazer
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Hi Peejay

 

It could be a streaming media issue. If it is though they shouldn't advertise it as being 5.1 as that implies a separately encoded sub channel.  If the sub track is embedded into the front left and right channel it's a bit naughty lol. I haven't tried the Netflix test pattern yet but I will.  :-). I watch most of my movies either direct from bluray or from my hard drive via Kodi. I ripped them all myself and with the multi channel soundtracks in tact. My separates system is still at my parents house all set up so next time I am there I will do some testing on that to see how it differs from my soundbar setup.  

 

Lee 

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leelazer
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All

 

Where are you based. I have no test pattern on my Netflix. I am in the UK. If you are in the US I will have to connect via my VPN so I can access the US Netflix library.  

 

Lee 

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leelazer
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Im on Netflix now watching a planet earth documentary narrated by David Attenborough. If I place my hand on the sub when he is talking the sub is supporting his voice. I can't remember who it was that said to try this as they had no sub support???  

 

Lee

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leelazer
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Ok, so none of the films I have tested on Netflix that claim to have a 5.1 sound track habe sub support for voice.  Time to try amazon prime. 

 

Lee 

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leelazer
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Hi All

 

The plot thickens.  I have now tried star trek into darkness on Netflix. From my hard drive on kodi, from blueray from my PS4 and xbox one and 4K bluray from my xbox one.  In the opening scene where kirk is presenting an artifact to a group of aliens there is zero sub support for kirk's voice on all platforms.  However, when the aliens speak there is sub support. I am wondering if the vocal range of the human voice doesn't require sub support in many cases.  I doubt mine would. Lol. I don't feel when watching movies that voice is lacking low end punch. If I hadn't been touching the sub to check I wouldn't have noticed that it wasn't adding to the mix.  This is a tough one indeed as very low processed voice like the aliens and optimus Prime ect seem to have dub support. David Attenborough's voice was the exception on Netflix in that the sub was supporting.  Can someone else confirm? 

 

Lee 

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simon_w
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Notsamsung

 

I would expect the Left Right and Centre channels to all be the same in the way the sub component is handled. 

 

The soundbar has pretty small speakers inside so the amount of bass it can produce will always be limited. Therefore it makes sense that even if no signal is specifically sent to the sub channel in the Dolby Digital stream, the active crossover in the soundbar should route something to the sub to support the sound for all the front channels. 

 

I dont expect the same behaviour for the rear channels as the soundbar does not know what frequency range the rears can reproduce (different for R1/R3/R5)

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simon_w
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My post and the manual are completely in agreement but the information in the manual is incomplete and does not fully explain the implications of these settings...

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Robbienobs
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I miss wires 😞

 

I will do some testing tonight Lee...........

 

Sorry for the lamens talk but is the centre channel not mainly for speach, and maybe this is why it's different to left/right front channels and has less support? 

 

 

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NotSamsung
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@simon_w wrote:

Notsamsung

 

I would expect the Left Right and Centre channels to all be the same in the way the sub component is handled. 

 

The soundbar has pretty small speakers inside so the amount of bass it can produce will always be limited. Therefore it makes sense that even if no signal is specifically sent to the sub channel in the Dolby Digital stream, the active crossover in the soundbar should route something to the sub to support the sound for all the front channels. 

 

I dont expect the same behaviour for the rear channels as the soundbar does not know what frequency range the rears can reproduce (different for R1/R3/R5)


This is a bug then given that it works on the m650 and lacks crossover.

That's on addition to the low volume when using DD. 

 

How do we log a bug with Samsung? 

 

Samsung,  are you reading this? 

 

 

Samsung claims for the ms650: 'Samsung also reckons its dedicated centre channel improves voice clarity compared with traditional soundbars, as the sound comes from a single unit with no subwoofer to muddy the water.'

 

I they got it working for the ms650. So why can't they get it working for the k650?

 

Simon,

 

You need to explain your claims.  My TV manual differs to your claims.

 

HDMI Audio Format.

Sets the format of the audio input signal so that it is suitable for the external device connected to one of the TV's HDMI ports.  

 

Audio Format. 

Selects tbe digital audio output (S/PDIF) format.  The available formats depend on the input source.

 

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Peejay84
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Lee it was me:)

 

Not all David Attenboroughs documentaries are 5.1 on Netflix. Planet Earth is sadly in stereo. 

The ones with 5.1 are Life Story, Africa and Life. Try those with soundbar alone (no rears) and switch between Standard mode and Movie mode. You will see what i'm talking about :smiling-face:

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Peejay84
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>This is a bug then given that it works on the m650 and lacks crossover.
That's on addition to the low volume when using DD.

MS-650 does not have a separate subwoofer (you will be able to buy a separate subwoofer later this year for it), it has 3 speakers per channel - sub woofer, mid woofer and high range tweeter.
It's a little different in terms of active crossover because it doesn't have to send anything wirelessy to a separate woofer.
The way it behaves will probably change when you plug a wireless subwoofer to it.
Granted, all channels of MS-650 sound exactly the same and get the same bass levels i every test i made. I see no reason why K-650 should be different.

What i intend to check is how other samsung soundbars with separate subwoofer behave.
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Peejay84
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>I would expect the Left Right and Centre channels to all be the same in the way the sub component is handled.
The soundbar has pretty small speakers inside so the amount of bass it can produce will always be limited. Therefore it makes sense that even if no signal is specifically sent to the sub channel in the Dolby Digital stream, the active crossover in the soundbar should route something to the sub to support the sound for all the front channels.

Exactly simon, this is how it should work. On top of that, the center channel sounds to me like it actually undergoes active crossover and the filter just cuts anything below specified frequency, it's just the subwoofer isn't receiving what has been cut from the signal like it should.
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