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iPlayer HLG/UHD HDR on Samsung’s J and K Series TVs

Helping Hand

@tarbat wrote:

@AntS wrote:

"2016 SUHD TV’s support UHD HDR HLG via Broadcast, Satellite & Terrestrial and from USB. They do support UHD HDR via HDMI, just not when encoded using HLG."


Surely this statement is untrue?  Haven't we already proven that a KS8000 can correctly display UHD HDR via HDMI, even when encoded using HLG!!  The simple problem is that the KS TV's don't communicate that ability to the source device. I get the feeling that Samsung haven't even understood the problem :(


Oh yes, it is of course false. And I've said so on here several times between when he posted it, and now.

 

 

Hotshot

@mrtickle wrote:

@tarbat wrote:

@AntS wrote:

"2016 SUHD TV’s support UHD HDR HLG via Broadcast, Satellite & Terrestrial and from USB. They do support UHD HDR via HDMI, just not when encoded using HLG."


Surely this statement is untrue?  Haven't we already proven that a KS8000 can correctly display UHD HDR via HDMI, even when encoded using HLG!!  The simple problem is that the KS TV's don't communicate that ability to the source device. I get the feeling that Samsung haven't even understood the problem :(


Oh yes, it is of course false. And I've said so on here several times between when he posted it, and now.

 

 


But what it does say to me is Samsung have no intentions of fixing this even if they could. 

Helping Hand

@matt14 wrote:

 

To answer your question UHD HDR HLG over HDMI was not added to the HDMI 2.0b specification until after the KS Range of TV’s were launched.


Again thanks for relaying the message.

 

 

He is correct, although it is confusing.

We have TVs with HDMI 2.0a ports. The HDMI 2.0a spec is set in stone, but the HDMI2.0b spec did change, actually right at the end of 2016. So that is fair enough.

 

I didn't ever see our TVs sold or being described as having HDMI 2.0b ports. If they did, and anyone can find it, that may be very interesting

 

Info from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_2.0

HDMI 2.0 = 4k stuff.

HDMI 2.0a was released on April 8, 2015, and added support for High Dynamic Range (HDR) video with static metadata.[116]

HDMI 2.0b was released March, 2016.

   HDMI 2.0b initially supported the same HDR10 standard as HDMI 2.0a as specified in the CTA-861.3 specification.

   In December 2016 additional support for HDR Video transport was added to HDMI 2.0b in the recently released CTA-861-G specification, which extends the static metadata signaling to include Hybrid Log-Gamma (HLG).

 

So, if they do fix our EDID, it will mean they have indeed perform an "in service upgrade", and it will mean we all have HDMI 2.0b ports which comply with CTA-861-G

 

By adding support for CTA-861-G we'll have the later version of the HDMI 2.0b spec, and HLG over HDMI support.

 

Helping Hand

More HDMI2.0b info for those interested.

HDMI announced on the manufacturer section of their website that HDMI 2.0b can support HLG due to the release of CTA-861-G

https://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_2_0/index.aspx

"NOTICE: Previously, HDMI Specification Version 2.0b (HDMI 2.0b) only supported HDR (High Dynamic Range) video transport in the SMPTE ST 2084 EOTF (as applied in the media profile commonly known as HDR10), by referencing the CTA861.3 specification. The Consumer Technology Association (CTA) has recently notified the HDMI Forum of the adoption of a new version of the CTA-861 Specification, CTA-861-G. This new version provides additional support for HDR Video transport by including (among others) an extension to the static metadata signaling to include the HLG (Hybrid Log Gamma) EOTF. The HDMI Forum has assessed the applicability of the CTA-861-G Specification to HDMI 2.0b. The HDMI Forum has confirmed that the extension of the static metadata signaling to include HLG can be utilized under the existing HDMI 2.0b Specification. This means that HLG Video Transport functionality may be implemented on HDMI 2.0b compliant devices."

Hotshot

Do is the ks 2.0b complaint. I think I remember some saying it was just a software update for the ks to go from 2.0 a to 2.0b. I thought that was odd at the time.  Can someone please explain though why the ks can receive hlg via HD fury of other devices that do not ask for the edid. All very confusing. 

Navigator

@mrtickle wrote:

@matt14 wrote:

 

To answer your question UHD HDR HLG over HDMI was not added to the HDMI 2.0b specification until after the KS Range of TV’s were launched.


Again thanks for relaying the message.

 

 

He is correct, although it is confusing.

We have TVs with HDMI 2.0a ports. The HDMI 2.0a spec is set in stone, but the HDMI2.0b spec did change, actually right at the end of 2016. So that is fair enough.

 

I didn't ever see our TVs sold or being described as having HDMI 2.0b ports. If they did, and anyone can find it, that may be very interesting

 

Info from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_2.0

HDMI 2.0 = 4k stuff.

HDMI 2.0a was released on April 8, 2015, and added support for High Dynamic Range (HDR) video with static metadata.[116]

HDMI 2.0b was released March, 2016.

   HDMI 2.0b initially supported the same HDR10 standard as HDMI 2.0a as specified in the CTA-861.3 specification.

   In December 2016 additional support for HDR Video transport was added to HDMI 2.0b in the recently released CTA-861-G specification, which extends the static metadata signaling to include Hybrid Log-Gamma (HLG).

 

So, if they do fix our EDID, it will mean they have indeed perform an "in service upgrade", and it will mean we all have HDMI 2.0b ports which comply with CTA-861-G

 

By adding support for CTA-861-G we'll have the later version of the HDMI 2.0b spec, and HLG over HDMI support.

 


I may not be understanding this correctly, but does this mean that they can’t just change the EDID and keep the HDMI spec as 2.0a? Would they effectly have to do a full upgrade of the HDMI to 2.0b?


@jordanwebbo90 wrote:

 

I may not be understanding this correctly, but does this mean that they can’t just change the EDID and keep the HDMI spec as 2.0a? Would they effectly have to do a full upgrade of the HDMI to 2.0b?


Yes. The HDMI Spec as Dr Tickler says MANDATES that vendors are able to upgrade within point families, and actually have an obligation to do so. 

 

For example, the Xbox One X ships with 2.1 HDMI capability, but is currently rated for 2.0b. Microsoft have said they will upgrade the ports by a firmware upgrade to 2.1 to enable full VRR support (although it has Freesync support in Alpha Insider builds).

 

So far from being static, the underlying HDMI framework IS designed to be upgraded, it's up to the vendor to decide to do it.

 

EDID data is just metadata, it tells the peripheral the capabilities of the TV. 

Hotshot

@TastyBurger666 wrote:

@jordanwebbo90 wrote:

 

I may not be understanding this correctly, but does this mean that they can’t just change the EDID and keep the HDMI spec as 2.0a? Would they effectly have to do a full upgrade of the HDMI to 2.0b?


Yes. The HDMI Spec as Dr Tickler says MANDATES that vendors are able to upgrade within point families, and actually have an obligation to do so. 

 

For example, the Xbox One X ships with 2.1 HDMI capability, but is currently rated for 2.0b. Microsoft have said they will upgrade the ports by a firmware upgrade to 2.1 to enable full VRR support (although it has Freesync support in Alpha Insider builds).

 

So far from being static, the underlying HDMI framework IS designed to be upgraded, it's up to the vendor to decide to do it.

 

EDID data is just metadata, it tells the peripheral the capabilities of the TV. 


So if the vendor decided not to update then we are stuffed. 

Helping Hand

That's correct, but HDMI is a clusterflip in general.

The future HDMI2.1 standard will be a much bigger and deeper minefield than anything before. All the features are optional. This is very anti-consumer and helps the manufacturers get away with worse behaviour. It means that if a manf says "This TV supports
HDMI 2.1" it's meaningless.
Instead, the customer has to ask:
Does it support the "Game Mode Variable Refresh Rate" feature that's part of HDMI 2.1?
Does it support the "Dynamic HDR metadata" feature that's part of HDMI 2.1?
Does it support the 4K at 120Hz mode that's part of HDMI 2.1?
Does it support the "enhanced Audio Return Channel (eARC)" feature that's part of HDMI 2.1?

etc. for each and every single feature. Because they are all individually optional. It's crazy. Up until now, all you had to know was "has the TV got HDMI <version number>". That's all about to change. It's not going to make things better.

 

 

Voyager

@mrtickle wrote:

@matt14 wrote:

 

To answer your question UHD HDR HLG over HDMI was not added to the HDMI 2.0b specification until after the KS Range of TV’s were launched.


Again thanks for relaying the message.

 

 

He is correct, although it is confusing.

We have TVs with HDMI 2.0a ports. The HDMI 2.0a spec is set in stone, but the HDMI2.0b spec did change, actually right at the end of 2016. So that is fair enough.

 

I didn't ever see our TVs sold or being described as having HDMI 2.0b ports. If they did, and anyone can find it, that may be very interesting

 

Info from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_2.0

HDMI 2.0 = 4k stuff.

HDMI 2.0a was released on April 8, 2015, and added support for High Dynamic Range (HDR) video with static metadata.[116]

HDMI 2.0b was released March, 2016.

   HDMI 2.0b initially supported the same HDR10 standard as HDMI 2.0a as specified in the CTA-861.3 specification.

   In December 2016 additional support for HDR Video transport was added to HDMI 2.0b in the recently released CTA-861-G specification, which extends the static metadata signaling to include Hybrid Log-Gamma (HLG).

 

So, if they do fix our EDID, it will mean they have indeed perform an "in service upgrade", and it will mean we all have HDMI 2.0b ports which comply with CTA-861-G

 

By adding support for CTA-861-G we'll have the later version of the HDMI 2.0b spec, and HLG over HDMI support.

 


The TVs have been HDMI 2.0b compliant ever since they gained the ability to play HLG over HDMI. Sure, the EDID isn't working correctly, but that's seperate from HDMI. The HDMI ports are capable of transmitting HLG from external devices, and so that makes them HDMI 2.0b compliant.

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