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iPlayer HLG/UHD HDR on Samsung’s J and K Series TVs

Helping Hand

@UHDHDR wrote:

@mrtickle wrote:

@matt14 wrote:

 

To answer your question UHD HDR HLG over HDMI was not added to the HDMI 2.0b specification until after the KS Range of TV’s were launched.


Again thanks for relaying the message.

 

 

He is correct, although it is confusing.

We have TVs with HDMI 2.0a ports. The HDMI 2.0a spec is set in stone, but the HDMI2.0b spec did change, actually right at the end of 2016. So that is fair enough.

 

I didn't ever see our TVs sold or being described as having HDMI 2.0b ports. If they did, and anyone can find it, that may be very interesting

 

Info from

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDMI#Version_2.0

HDMI 2.0 = 4k stuff.

HDMI 2.0a was released on April 8, 2015, and added support for High Dynamic Range (HDR) video with static metadata.[116]

HDMI 2.0b was released March, 2016.

   HDMI 2.0b initially supported the same HDR10 standard as HDMI 2.0a as specified in the CTA-861.3 specification.

   In December 2016 additional support for HDR Video transport was added to HDMI 2.0b in the recently released CTA-861-G specification, which extends the static metadata signaling to include Hybrid Log-Gamma (HLG).

 

So, if they do fix our EDID, it will mean they have indeed perform an "in service upgrade", and it will mean we all have HDMI 2.0b ports which comply with CTA-861-G

 

By adding support for CTA-861-G we'll have the later version of the HDMI 2.0b spec, and HLG over HDMI support.

 


The TVs have been HDMI 2.0b compliant ever since they gained the ability to play HLG over HDMI. Sure, the EDID isn't working correctly, but that's seperate from HDMI. The HDMI ports are capable of transmitting HLG from external devices, and so that makes them HDMI 2.0b compliant.


 

Hmm, not sure I agree with you there really. EDID is inextricably linked to the HDMI signalling, and whilst it does pre-date HDMI it's all part and parcel of what's required. I think this is splitting hairs (either way!)

 

Voyager

Today’s correspondence. Could be wishful thinking but I sense movement from the final paragraph....

 

—————

 

If customer’s have taken their own steps to achieve HLG Samsung cannot comment on this, our position remains as detailed in my previous response below:
 
As an organisation we always listen to and support our customers in striving for ways to improve their experience of our products. Where we can implement “in-life” upgrades that provide a globally stable improvement without any negative impact on current performance, however we are not in a position to reveal what those improvements may look like nor the timescales in which they may be delivered. Instead we encourage all users to keep their software up to date in order to receive improvements as they are released.
 
Our UK Product Specialists are continuing to discuss feedback on this matter with their colleagues in Europe and Worldwide however we cannot comment on any information or statements made by other Samsung subsidiaries to their local customers.
 
Regards
 
Sean ******
Helping Hand
Yes. There's be a lot more "discussion" between the UK Product Specialists and Samsung Engineering in South Korea if Sky launch HDR in the UK before the EDID is fixed, that's for sure!
Black Belt 

@mrtickle wrote:
Yes. There's be a lot more "discussion" between the UK Product Specialists and Samsung Engineering in South Korea if Sky launch HDR in the UK before the EDID is fixed, that's for sure!

Can I just ask,  if sky broadcast in HDR then the ks will be ok,  but if it is i n hlg then unless the edid is fixed the ks has problems,  I. E. HD fury. 

Thanks

Voyager

Very good question. We don’t know what Sky will use for which content. Anything on a linear broadcast channel will surely be in HLG. 

 

There’s a chance that streamed on demand content and / or the forthcoming Netflix app will be in non-HLG HDR. I just don’t know. Italian users might know more. 

Helping Hand

@paul1277 wrote:

@mrtickle wrote:
Yes. There's be a lot more "discussion" between the UK Product Specialists and Samsung Engineering in South Korea if Sky launch HDR in the UK before the EDID is fixed, that's for sure!

Can I just ask,  if sky broadcast in HDR then the ks will be ok,  but if it is i n hlg then unless the edid is fixed the ks has problems,  I. E. HD fury. 

Thanks


HLG is a form of HDR. HDR is the "umbrella" term for all the different standards, HDR10, HLG, dolby vision.

Sky's broadcasts will be the HLG standard of HDR but it will work one of two ways. In both cases, assume that the STB will check the TV and decide whether the TV supports HLG HDR or not.

1. Two broadcasts, the first SDR (just like the SkyQ box does now), the second HLG HDR , and the box will select which one to output. This is no different to switching bewteen a DD5.1 soundtrack and a PCM soundtrack from the same broadcast as you do now for audio.

2a. One broadcast, which is HLG HDR only, and the box will "tone map" the bright highlights in software if it thinks you don't have a capable TV.

2b. One broadcast, which is HLG HDR only, and the box won't even tone map, instead just dump the HLG signal down the HDMI cable and hope for the best. Highlights will be horribly clipped on an SDR display and it'll look terrible.

The second way will use less bandwidth but the quality in (2a) of the tone mapping is at the mercy of the software. I doubt (2b) will be allowed.

 

This is based on the BBC's blog they put up on the web the other week, about the recent wedding in the Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg family [[link: descendant 3 - G - V - a - ii] from their pad in Windsor. They did a lot of very serious processing using professional broadcast kit to tone-map the HLG original down to SDR, which was then used for the worldwide feed in many countries. You don't just use the raw HLG footage on an SDR TV for proper viewing (it works, but that's only intended for checking the signal).

 

 

 

 

Highlighted
Navigator

The last paragraph does sound promising and makes sense with directv engineers in America and sky in Italy discussing the issue with Samsung.

 

In terms of the format Sky will be using, I’m pretty sure it was confirmed in a technical document released by Sky that HDR content could be provided to them in HDR10, but this would then be converted to HLG.

 

See 4.5.2 and 5.1.3:

Sky document

Helping Hand

Oh yes indeed. This is just what comes out of the HDMI socket.

btw we could ask the Italians who already have 4k HDR (HLG) F1 broadcasts. I might have a go myself as I am registered on this forum https://www.digital-forum.it/forumdisplay.php?201-Sky-Sezione-Tecnica-Sky-Q

 

ps. contradicting myself but maybe it will be a single HLG stream, as that was sort-of the point of HLG. Hmm. 

The HDR UHD feeds coming out of the World Cup are both HDR10 and HLG (separate truck feeds though).

 

There's a slide towards the end of  the presentation video Dr Tickler linked to that goes into great details about the production workflow, right down to the equipment being used (a LOT of Sony end-to-end stuff, and I mean a LOT).

Helping Hand

I've had an answer back! from "marcobremb" of Dalmine:
https://www.digital-forum.it/showthread.php?194610-Sky-4K-su-Sky-Q-valutazioni-tecniche-e-domande-su...

 

NB: even though this is in quotes, these are not his words. This is the output of Google Translate:


"Hello.
Screenshots maybe tomorrow, but I can tell you how it works

Menu> Settings> Configure> Audio and Video. From here you can choose the resolution (720p, 1080i, 1080p, 2160p 8-bit, 2160p 10bit, 2160p HDR)
Setting on "2160p HDR" the TV plays in HDR HLG only when there is actually HDR content (on normal HD channels the HDR is not active, even if you set the Q to 2160p HDR)

Sky chose the HLG for that. With HLG it is not necessary to make a double version: those who do not have HDR TV can easily watch in 4K SDR, who has the TV that supports HDR HLG sees it in this format. So no, no double band
"

ie there is a single HLG broadcast for all.

I'm of the mindset that if you get a HLG broadcast and you set the SkyQ box to "2160p 8-bit" or "2160p 10-bit" the the box, knowing you only have an SDR TV, will either do some tone-mapping or not (whatever case, that can easily be changed by Sky in software upgrades). If you set the SkyQ box to "2160p HDR", and your TV passes the EDID test (we already know the SkyQ box checks!), then you'll get the pure HLG output.

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