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iPlayer HLG/UHD HDR on Samsung’s J and K Series TVs

Voyager

@BAMozzy wrote:

@hdmi wrote:

@paul1111 wrote:

Thanks for that. How do you think they compare to the other high end TV's, like LG Panasonic and Sony?


In my opinion when it comes to HDR tone mapping and brightness, Samsung have got it completely wrong compared to Sony, as for Panasonic I have just checked oled and algorithm is slightly better than Sony (for specular highlights) I believe same processing will on led LCD as well

For HDR Samsung misses it completely, they are good for SDR but so are entry level Samsung and hisense etc



Personally I disagree. Samsungs algorithm protects highlight detail which results in no clipping at all. Panasonic and Sony are good - to a point but can result in clipping. Sony tend to follow the curve upto a higher point than Samsung will and then compress more of the highlights down into a smaller block and anything above a certain point gets clipped. Panasonics approach is very similar too. It works well with 1000nit mastered content but 4000nit mastered films (by far the most common) lose highlight detail at the top end - Samsungs though will keep that.

 

The main difference is where Samsung and the others tend to start tone mapping rather than displaying it at the mastered level. For example, Samsung may opt to display all content up to 350nits at their accurate brightness. the content from 350nits to 4000 is then given 350 to 1400 nits to be tone mapped into and keeping all the highlight detail in place. Sony though could decide to display everything up to 800nits at the right brightness. However everything from 800 to 2500nits is now given 800-1200nits and everything above 2500nits is clipped - Panasonic have a 'similar' algorithm.

 

What this means is that the average picture brightness is brighter because something at 600nits is displayed at 600nits. Samsungs may well only be 500nits. However because they have a much larger range for the highlights, that gives them more room to tone map and as a result get more variation in the highlight which gives more detail at the expense of seemingly a bit 'dimmer'. It also gives Samsung the edge at the very top end too as they don't clip any detail at all.

 

I do understand that humans are more inclined towards 'bright and shiny' - often preferring more saturation in the colours too because that looks 'brighter' even if less accurate. I can understand why some may prefer a higher average brighter picture but I prefer to retain as much detail as possible throughout.

 

If/when TV's can reach 4000 - or even 10000nits, then there will be no need to have tone mapping at all. Something that the Director intended to be shown at 2500nits will be displayed at that level - not tone mapped down to say 900nits because the TV only has a peak brightness of 1200nits. Sony and Panasonic may display that at 1200nits in their algorithm but then everything above 2500nits would end up being clipped losing that detail.

 

Its Swings and Roundabouts - do you keep more of the 'lower' brightness content mapping 1:1 and sacrifice the high end and especially the top range or do you keep the a lot of the 'lower' brightness content and give yourself more scope for keeping the highlight detail and especially the top end? The more you keep at the bottom end, the less you have availble to tone map the higher end into.

 


I don't know wether it is my panel (faulty screen) or it is a common problem, HDR suffer from heavy posterization in darker scenes only way to overcome is increase brightness to 51 (from 45 found in common/default settings), sky cinema is unwatchable (as a matter of fact any movie with dark scenes), even black bars have flickering on left half, even with UHD version of Lawrence of Arabia!

Explorer

@Amazed wrote:

@ukpetey, do you have any problem if I use your post as a template to serve notice to Samsung at this location?


No, not at all, please feel free to use and abuse it as necessary ! 

Navigator

Bought my UE43KS7500 in December 2016, it will be my last Samsung product due to this non HLG issue.

Looking for a UHD player, Samsung isn't on the list. Samsung - hang your head in shame.

Anyone old enough to remember Sharp products in the UK in the late seventies/early eighties? They now have zilch market share due to their poor service back then. Samsung - you're never too big to fall.

First Poster

I agree. No company is too big to fail.

 

Ive got a UE49KS7000 bought in Sep 2016. I’ve had the panel replaced due to malfunction.

 

If Samsung don’t sort this HLG issue for pre-2017 TVs I will not be buying a Samsung product again. Likewise I will be advising my friends, family to avoid Samsung TVs and other products. 

 

Samsung - don’t be so short sighted and arrogant. 

Voyager

I've lost all faith that samsung will sort this out, the silence is deafening once more.

Black Belt 

Just seen on the news that Apple have apologized for slowing down their older phones! Another large company s h a f t I n g their loyal customers. They got caught and will hopefully put things right, unlike Samsung!!!!!!!!!

Highlighted
Explorer

@paul1277 wrote:

Just seen on the news that Apple have apologized for slowing down their older phones! Another large company s h a f t I n g their loyal customers. They got caught and will hopefully put things right, unlike Samsung!!!!!!!!!


That’s not really a comparable. With Apple it is a power management issue, the fix makes the phone less likely to shut down unexpectedly as it’s battery ages. Where they failed was not telling iPhone owners about this new and positive feature. 

 

Only recently we had the battery replaced in my daughters iPhone 5S (which didn’t have this new feature installed to maximise battery life). She would frequently complain that her phone had 43 percent battery (as an example) and randomly shut down. 

 

Conversely my 6S slows down at times, but vitally doesn’t shut down, preserving its useablilty as long as possible. So this feature is a benefit, just one Apple forgot to mention. 

 

With Samsung, we are being denied promised features, with no apology, no explanation, and it seems, once they have our money, no care at all. It took forever for our sets to get the C4 All4 app, there appeared little interest from Samsung to expedite the process. Once they’ve sold you the TV, you seem to be more or less abandoned. 

 

Which is not the Apple way at all, their products are supported properly for years. 

Explorer

I genuinely like my 49KS7000. I bought it after reading reviews, reading pages on AVForums, many visits to Richer Sounds to see my ‘narrowed down by research’ choices, and finally settled on the Samsung over LG, Philips and Panasonic. At the same time I also bought a Samsung UHD player to  enjoy the 4k experience.Itas exhausting work, but I was delighted by the result.

 

Because I genuinely believed I had bought the best I could afford, and I knew Samsung were going to update it for HLG. 

 

Except they now say they aren’t. Which disappoints me greatly. We have great consumer laws in this country, and I’m certain they will be useful if required. Personally I’m not certain that this story is over yet, not least because of this thread on Samsung’s own forum. 

 

So it is that I serve notice h e r e (on their own official forum) to Samsung that, they have until the end of February 2018 to update my television to receive the HLG HDR capabilities promised, and which will work successfully with the BBC’s iplayer service. This is likely to be the way that U.K. viewers will receive UHD content, and not via terrestrial broadcast over the air. 

 

I believe this to be fair and reasonable, both in terms of Samsungs engineering capabilities, and within the timescale allotted. Should my television not be equipped with capabilities to receive such content by the date quoted, I shall at that point commence discussions with Richer Sounds around returning it for a full refund, and notify trading standards via citizens advice. I shall take whatever steps are required to secure a full refund, including the small claims court.

 

Whilst I am less concerned about the advertised yet still not delivered Smart Things hub, which has failed to materialize, this will form part of my discussions with Richer Sounds, Samsung and others as necessary. 

 

Adam Sharpe 29th December 2017

Apprentice

@Adam, hope you don't mind me repeating, I fully agree with you.

 

So it is that I serve notice ***** (on their own official forum) to Samsung that, they have until the end of February 2018 to update my television to receive the HLG HDR capabilities promised, and which will work successfully with the BBC’s iplayer service.

 

Josh. 

Explorer

@ewanstancarr wrote:

Given we have built up a head of steam on this forum can everyone also please raise a case online with citizens advice. It will take you two minutes and has the benefit of increasing awareness with trading standards. 


Sorry I disagree with this advice. Citizens Advice is a charity and I'd rather they spent their limited funds on helping those who really need financial advice and assistance, rather than processing lots of cases from us with our very "third world problem" that we can't watch 4K content (currently one show to retain some perspective) via iPlayer on our really expensive TVs.

 

I would recommend raising the issue with trading standards directly (a council-funded organisation rather than a charity), BBC Watchdog, and finally the retailer where you purchased the set as it's them you have the contract with.

 

If there is a case for mis-selling, it's going to be the retailer you need to lodge your complaint with to get any kind of compensation or replacement.

 

 

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