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Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

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First Poster

Just want to add that I also get this issue (SkyQ HDMI set to DD) Get delay via the TV speakers or being output to my SONOS system. 

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Navigator

I have a solution for the lip sync issue but it comes at a couple of costs. 

 

I now have a Q90R sound bar as well as the Q90R TV. So you would think they would work perfectly together... The lip sync issue continues if you connect sources to the TV one connect and just use HDMI ARC between the soundbar and TV. However, if you connect the sources to the soundbar (there are only 2 more HDMI ports and 1 optical) and just use the HDMI ARC as before then the lip sync issue is resolved.  This is for Dolby Digital too and DD+. 

 

What are the “costs”?  Well the first is the cost of the soundbar. It’s not cheap!  I suspect that this solution may however work with other soundbars if they have enough HDMI inputs for your needs. The second is really annoying. When I turn the TV off with the TV remote, the soundbar also goes off, so far so good. However, when I turn on the TV, the soundbar does not switch on. I then have to use the soundbar remote just to switch it on. Also it doesn’t always then recognise the source until something is done on the soure, even if it was already on. 

 

Interestingly/annoyingly, with the original configuration with the lip sync issues, the remote works fine for on and off!  So currently it’s either lip sync or remote issues!

 

 

I have someone coming out to look at my set up later in the week. Maybe the on/off issue can be fixed. If not, it looks like just another problem from Samsung that they won’t fix. 

 

The other point to note is that the Q90R soundbar isn’t the most asthetically pleasing device I’ve ever seen. The soundbar isn’t too bad but the sub is a big black box and the rear speakers are chunky. It does sound really good however. 

 

Hope you’re reading this Samsung and can help your customers out?  Please?  

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First Poster

When you say "lip-sync issues are resolved" I feel compelled to comment. Different people (and even the same person once sensitized) have vastly different awareness of lip-sync error. Some can ignore 100 ms while others are bothered by 2 or 3 ms error. Research at Stanford over 20 years ago confirmed lip-sync error makes us distrust the characters and the presentation in a similar way to how we feel when people don't make eye contact with us. But the evidence suggests that "we" - the viewers- are the ones not making eye contact as we subliminally look askanse to avoid the impossibility of sound "before" the event - the lip movement - that creates the sound. To REALLY correct lip-sync you need to be able to adjust an audio delay down to the ms while watching the video. Alchemy2, Felston and Primare have made products to do just that via a hand held remote. Most delay s/pdif and optical in 1 ms increments but Felston developed an HDMI model but by the time they had it the market was for HDMI 2.0 so they never introduced their HDMI 1.3 model but continue to sell their flagship DD740. But unfortunately with today's wide array of video formats audio sometimes arrives already delayed and no audio delay can fix that. By the way SONUS adds about 30 ms audio delay which isn't usually a problem but can be when there are other delays in a system.

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Explorer
I read a study (a long time ago) performed by EBU that concluded that usual limits when ordinary viewers get annoyed was with sound 60ms after or 40ms before the picture. They also concluded that this range decreased once the viewer got aware of the problem. I do believe that a bigger (relative) picture also makes us more sensitive. And as you say a "disconnected feeling" happens with less sync errors.
Anyway, the subject of this thread is the fact that our TV:s systematically adds a huge audio delay on dolby digital (and I believe DTS) sound that is input through HDMI. My measurement show a clear difference, about 160ms extra for DD2.0 compared to 2-ch PCM (Where the PCM audio compensation added by the TV is at least "good enough" to not be annoying.
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Navigator

It was an initial “feeling” after some initial testing. In fact after further testing I don’t believe the new software has made any difference. I was probably unlucky with the broadcast I initially tested with that it masked the delay. As you no doubt know, some broadcasts are more or less in sync than others. 

 

In conclusion when the sources are connected to the one connect box and using DD the video remains ahead of the sound and cannot be compensated for.  Samsung need to fix this. 

 

Furhermore, when I connect the HDMI sources to the Q90R soundbar, lip sync is fixed. Proving that it is the Q90R TV at fault. However, in this configuration ARC Anynet+ is totally unworkable. So either way, Samsung’s 2 “premium” products neither work alone or together. 

 

At the moment I can’t even get the Sky Q to come on the screen or soundbar at all and I just closed the door on the living room, switched the light off and am off to watch TV on my Sony upstairs. 

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First Poster

Got to say the support by Samsung here is dire. I'd have expected this to at least be acknowledged by someone at Samsung and to fire it up the chain as an issue to be fixed in a future update. I'm now tempted to return my set if this is an example of how they treat their flagship 4K TV customers... 

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Explorer

Same here - the lack of offical response is dissapointing.

 

My setup includes a (many years ago) pricy A/V receiver, but which is limited to 1080p. However it is still great use for the audio part. This means that in case of higher resolution sources like e.g. FireTV (Netflix) I need to connect them to the TV directly and pass the audio via optical cable from TV to A/V receiver.

 

Now my Sat-Receiver has an optical output of its own, and with that I can very nicely see the audio lag that is introduced by the TV by toggling between the optical audio output from the TV and the Sat-Reciever. In case of SAT -> HDMI -> TV -> OPT -> A/V  the audio is notceably delayed related to the picture although I have set the delay to 0msec. In case of SAT -> OPT -> A/V the audio is in sync. So my A/V receiver is definetely not the culprit here.

 

Sadly in case of the FireTV stick I have no other option than to go for the OPT out of the TV. And this is very annoying.

 

So Samsung: if you can sell TVs for >4000€, you can definetely fix this issue pronto! I am definetely not willing to spend another >1000€ on a new A/V receiver!

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First Poster

Even if you were willing to spend 1000  Euro (or more) on a new AV receiver there is no way to correst it if audio is delayed. That would require a video delay. Unfortunately with HDMI 2.0's 8K data is too fast to even make such a device possible with the fastest (and most expensive) FPGA's today. It's barely possible for 4K but all the HDMI hype makes it economically impossible. What's so ridiculous is no human alive can see any difference in 1080 and 4K (and certainly 8K) at a normal viewing distance (say 8 feet on a 60" screen) but they both look better at 1 or 2 feet in stores. We have let the HDMI consortium create this situation and now we can't do aything about it. Your best bet is to use your SAT optical output and if you need some audio delay to get perfect lip-sync there are low cost devices to delay the s/pdif outputs in 1 ms steps via remote handsets. Some sound bars and even TV's can also delay sound but usually in huge steps like 10 or 20 ms. This probably means NOT using devices like the Firestick than have HDMI outputs only as well as streaming devices built in to your TV. Sorry.

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Explorer

Thanks for your response. If I invest in a new A/V I can connect all my 4K sources to the A/V and get rid of the delay which is obviously introduced by passing the audio through the Samsung TV (please look carefully at the audio connection I have described in above posting).

 

in a nutshell: 

SAT -> HDMI -> TV -> OPT -> A/V  ~80msec of aufdio delay

SAT -> OPT -> A/V no delay.

 

But as I wrote before: I am asking Samsung to remove the ridiculous delay in the TV. As you corectly mentioned once the audio is delayed too much you have lost because delaying the video is expensive.

 

I am absolutely not interested in buying any workaround hardware (even external HDMI audio splitters) when I have a high-end TV for >4000€ wich should process the audio correctly in the first place!

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First Poster

I would "doubt" that but I suppose it's possible. From our experience once HDMI has the audio all bets are off.

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