iPlayer HLG/UHD HDR on Samsung’s J and K Series TVs

[ewanstancarr]

So, of the nigh on 400 TVs supported in BBC iplayer for the Blue Planet II  HLG episodes none are from Samsung. Oh joy. 

...

Moderator edit: Original thread title was "Blue Planet 2 HLG - No Samsung". With the OP's permission, the title was changed on 12/03/2018 to accurately reflect the dominant theme of the thread as it has progressed. If the reader would like to know more about the HLG format, please check out the BBC's page and FAQ's on it here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/projects/high-dynamic-range Thank you, AntS.

[crashcris]

Thank you AntS and I would appreciate the title change very much. There may only be a few of us JS owners here but our desire to have 4K UHD Iplayer (HLG if poss) enabled is the same.

[paul1111]

May I suggest this thread to talk about the Sky HLG/HDR on ks tvs,

https://eu.community.samsung.com/t5/TV-Audio-Video/KS-OWNERS-ONLY-Sky-to-introduce-HDR-content-on-Sk...

[dunwell]

Thoroughly support the thread title change. 

Discussion should then legitimately include HLG from Sky boxes, other peripherals and of course smart TV apps such as the iPlayer. 

Thanks Ant. 

[cattv1]

Thank you

As a J series owner I agree with the change of title as I originally subscribed to this thread  due to my disappointment that the tv was unable to display the Iplayer  in 4K.

[rozel]

I totally agree with change of thread subject. I also wish you (@AntS) will kick (ban) people who don't respect peoples' opinions without resorting to insulting their intelligence. Man up and moderate effectively please. This has become an extremely important thread for J and KS owners and if things can be kept on topic then I hope Samsung will eventually see the light. Thank you for reopening this thread, much appreciated.

roz

[UHDHDR]

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@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.

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on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive

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Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 

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I do not expect any underwater scene (salty and debris) to have specular highlights or bright colurs i.e. you should not expect or see something that is not trhere in first place!

I have seen clips that show diffrence betyween HLG and HDR, LGE Jazz with lots of lights, on the OLED

In correctly tonemapped implementaion this underwater clip should not make huge diffrence between diffrenet formats and sets (dowubt if any scene hits above 400 nits)

But at the end of the day if you argue that KS sereis can showing light bleed and haloing in a a dark scene, is more punchier, then nothin's there to stop you :smileylol:

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This is a scene from Blue Planet II, which was mastered at 1000 nits. There are plenty of underwater scenes in BPII which have bright specular highlights. Since the KS has over 1000 nits of peak brightness, it does not need to do any tone mapping. So what you see is exactly what the person who graded this intended for you to see. On the LG OLEDs, since they cannot hit 1000 nits, there is tone mapping. The tone mapping on the LG OLEDs is horrendous and very unintelligent. They tone map based on the mastering display max luminance, in this case 1000 nits. So even if a scene only has a MaxCLL (brightest pixel) of 400 nits, the LG OLED will tone map as if the max luminance is 1000 nits - that is, it will compress the entire 1000 nits into whatever the TV supports (750 nits for the 2016 sets, and 900 nits for the 2017 sets) and therefore the 400 nits will be compressed as well. So the brightest part of the image will be lower than what was intended.

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Matering does not mean every scene will be 1000 nits, and at least not in this clip, you can sniff the metadata, I have 2017 set (not sure about 2016) which empolys dynamic tonemapping and results are way lot better than standard HDR

This scene is well within the max value of the 2017 sets moreover the highlight of this clip is the very fine details - unfortunately I do not have any camera to capture - but I have compared the clips in HDR, HLG and SDR (playing on Sky Q 2TB) - diffrence is huge with SDR but not so much between HLG and HDR - i would've accpted OLED limitation for any other scene but not on this one, same applies to satuaration 

Check these out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Jg4-ndUJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipo05SYfqXw

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You are still not understanding. We know that not every scene is 1000 nits, but LG's tone mapping behaves as if it is, since their algorithm uses the mastering display max luminance to tone map.

Yes, the Active HDR on the 2017 sets helps with that, but it does not fully alleviate it. Also, it's using its own built-in dynamic metadata generation, which drives it further away from the intent of the grader, since the source does not contain dynamic metadata. 

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IlI' explain again

1. Peak brightness of 1000 nits is very rare moreover it should not cause any issues for the fact that this will make difference only in side by side comparison, but in isolation any clipping of higher nits data should be unnoticed due to infinite contrast (yes those bright areas of the frame will not be as per intent of content author)

2. In this particular clip, there's no brightness peak that goes above 400 nits, so OLED is displaying 100% per what author intends

In this particular clip If a set is displaying the salty water and debris with peak level exceeding the max level of brightness then it is a flaw

Most important thing I noticed is level of detail in HLG compared to HLG and HDR clip played in SDR via sky Q

As for dynamic tone mapping, it axhachie results closer to creator's intent, as mastering luminance does not apply to every scene so combination of using max Mon luminance per scene preserves the original material, that is why samSams went for HDR10+, the fallacy that just because a set hits 1000 or more nits does not tone mapping is very misleading, because LCD TV struggles in scenes with wide range of luminance (say 50-600), it is a catch 22 situation, if you increase peak brightness then screen artefacts creep in for HDR (content is mastered for viewing under dark conditions), that is why hdr implementation on an LCD set even with fald will struggle to be correct, only time LCD TV will beat oled is when comparing super bright scenes covering whole and in side by side 

But in isolation the clipping will not be noticeable on oled due to perceived brightness due to infinite contrast, human vision is perceptive it does not care about absolute values

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You're still not understanding how LG tone mapping works, after it has been explained to you many times. You aren't a technically inclined or educated person. We get it. But if you don't understand something, stop posting about it. Let the smart people do the thinking for you.

Once again, it doesn't matter how many times 1000 nits is achieved, because LG's tone mapping uses the mastering display max luminance (1000 nits, in this case) for its tone mapping algorithm. It doesn't use MaxCLL. Therefore, the TV will compress the entire 1000 nit range into a luminance range that the TV can support, and the MaxCLL will thus be compressed by the same factor. So the peak brightness displayed by the LG will not be as the director intended.

You are confusing LG's tone mapping algorithm with Samsung's (Samsung's algorithm actually sues MaxCLL.) That's to be expected of someone with no techical background or knowledge like yourself.

Yes, dynamic metadata and dynamic tone mapping allow you to get closer to the director's intent, if the dynamic metadata is applied directly to the source in post production. This is what happens with Dolby Vision and HDR10+. This is now, however, what happens with Active HDR. Active HDR is a dynamic metadata generation algorithm used by LG displays to generate dynamic metadata on the fly, on content that does not actually contain dynamic metadata. This has nothing to do with the director's intent, it's a feature that is meant to alleviate a flaw in LG's static tone mapping. 

[rozel]

That was not necessary so soon after the reopening of the thread - @AntS?

[ewanstancarr]

Yep @AntS, I'm fine with that. Interesting as some of the stuff is, its off topic. Would be good if the Samsung management could so robust in its customer service skills which frankly Id be embarrassed to be associated with...even indirectly

[paul1111]

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@UHDHDRwrote:

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@hdmiwrote:

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@UHDHDRwrote:

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@hdmiwrote:

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@UHDHDRwrote:

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@hdmiwrote:

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@UHDHDRwrote:

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@hdmiwrote:

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@paul1111wrote:

Just watched the two clips and I now can see that the HLG is a bit more like SDR where as the HDR10 does sparkle. Just my own thoughts, not a statement.

---

on the contrary i think HLG was as good as HDR on LG OLED (although you need to watch side by side to figure out any diffrence), i watched the same clip through Sky Q youtube app and in SDR it appeared to loose finer details

Howvere if Samsung KS is showing lot of variation then thoer HDR implementation could be over agressive

---

Your statement about HDR implementation being more "aggressive" on the KS makes no sense. It's not the implementation that is more intense - HDR10 is implemented in the same way on all TVs, with the tone mapping being the only difference. The KS simply has higher peak brightness than most TVs, including your OLED. So naturally, the HDR will appear more punchy if you are viewing it in the right environment - i.e. in a bright room or in a dark room with bias lighting.

The higher the peak brightness, like on our KS series TVs, the closer you are getting to the director's intent. 

---

I do not expect any underwater scene (salty and debris) to have specular highlights or bright colurs i.e. you should not expect or see something that is not trhere in first place!

I have seen clips that show diffrence betyween HLG and HDR, LGE Jazz with lots of lights, on the OLED

In correctly tonemapped implementaion this underwater clip should not make huge diffrence between diffrenet formats and sets (dowubt if any scene hits above 400 nits)

But at the end of the day if you argue that KS sereis can showing light bleed and haloing in a a dark scene, is more punchier, then nothin's there to stop you :smileylol:

---

This is a scene from Blue Planet II, which was mastered at 1000 nits. There are plenty of underwater scenes in BPII which have bright specular highlights. Since the KS has over 1000 nits of peak brightness, it does not need to do any tone mapping. So what you see is exactly what the person who graded this intended for you to see. On the LG OLEDs, since they cannot hit 1000 nits, there is tone mapping. The tone mapping on the LG OLEDs is horrendous and very unintelligent. They tone map based on the mastering display max luminance, in this case 1000 nits. So even if a scene only has a MaxCLL (brightest pixel) of 400 nits, the LG OLED will tone map as if the max luminance is 1000 nits - that is, it will compress the entire 1000 nits into whatever the TV supports (750 nits for the 2016 sets, and 900 nits for the 2017 sets) and therefore the 400 nits will be compressed as well. So the brightest part of the image will be lower than what was intended.

---

Matering does not mean every scene will be 1000 nits, and at least not in this clip, you can sniff the metadata, I have 2017 set (not sure about 2016) which empolys dynamic tonemapping and results are way lot better than standard HDR

This scene is well within the max value of the 2017 sets moreover the highlight of this clip is the very fine details - unfortunately I do not have any camera to capture - but I have compared the clips in HDR, HLG and SDR (playing on Sky Q 2TB) - diffrence is huge with SDR but not so much between HLG and HDR - i would've accpted OLED limitation for any other scene but not on this one, same applies to satuaration 

Check these out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90Jg4-ndUJI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipo05SYfqXw

---

You are still not understanding. We know that not every scene is 1000 nits, but LG's tone mapping behaves as if it is, since their algorithm uses the mastering display max luminance to tone map.

Yes, the Active HDR on the 2017 sets helps with that, but it does not fully alleviate it. Also, it's using its own built-in dynamic metadata generation, which drives it further away from the intent of the grader, since the source does not contain dynamic metadata. 

---

IlI' explain again

1. Peak brightness of 1000 nits is very rare moreover it should not cause any issues for the fact that this will make difference only in side by side comparison, but in isolation any clipping of higher nits data should be unnoticed due to infinite contrast (yes those bright areas of the frame will not be as per intent of content author)

2. In this particular clip, there's no brightness peak that goes above 400 nits, so OLED is displaying 100% per what author intends

In this particular clip If a set is displaying the salty water and debris with peak level exceeding the max level of brightness then it is a flaw

Most important thing I noticed is level of detail in HLG compared to HLG and HDR clip played in SDR via sky Q

As for dynamic tone mapping, it axhachie results closer to creator's intent, as mastering luminance does not apply to every scene so combination of using max Mon luminance per scene preserves the original material, that is why samSams went for HDR10+, the fallacy that just because a set hits 1000 or more nits does not tone mapping is very misleading, because LCD TV struggles in scenes with wide range of luminance (say 50-600), it is a catch 22 situation, if you increase peak brightness then screen artefacts creep in for HDR (content is mastered for viewing under dark conditions), that is why hdr implementation on an LCD set even with fald will struggle to be correct, only time LCD TV will beat oled is when comparing super bright scenes covering whole and in side by side 

But in isolation the clipping will not be noticeable on oled due to perceived brightness due to infinite contrast, human vision is perceptive it does not care about absolute values

---

You're still not understanding how LG tone mapping works, after it has been explained to you many times. You aren't a technically inclined or educated person. We get it. But if you don't understand something, stop posting about it. Let the smart people do the thinking for you.

Once again, it doesn't matter how many times 1000 nits is achieved, because LG's tone mapping uses the mastering display max luminance (1000 nits, in this case) for its tone mapping algorithm. It doesn't use MaxCLL. Therefore, the TV will compress the entire 1000 nit range into a luminance range that the TV can support, and the MaxCLL will thus be compressed by the same factor. So the peak brightness displayed by the LG will not be as the director intended.

You are confusing LG's tone mapping algorithm with Samsung's (Samsung's algorithm actually sues MaxCLL.) That's to be expected of someone with no techical background or knowledge like yourself.

Yes, dynamic metadata and dynamic tone mapping allow you to get closer to the director's intent, if the dynamic metadata is applied directly to the source in post production. This is what happens with Dolby Vision and HDR10+. This is now, however, what happens with Active HDR. Active HDR is a dynamic metadata generation algorithm used by LG displays to generate dynamic metadata on the fly, on content that does not actually contain dynamic metadata. This has nothing to do with the director's intent, it's a feature that is meant to alleviate a flaw in LG's static tone mapping. 

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Sorry but did you not read @AntS post? This is about Iplayer HLG and ks an is not for you ranting  about something that has nothing to do with this thread. And to say that myself and @hdmi are the same is outrageous. Please respect this thread and the people who read and post and who are interested in BBC Iplayer HLG and the Sky HLG. You nearly succeeded in closing this thread please now do not do the same again.

Thankyou.

[dunwell]

Spot on. Completely unnecessary!!