topic Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input in TV

Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

d00p — Thu, 30 May 2019 07:08:24 GMT

I -- and judging from posts in various fora on the web, a lot of other customers -- experience lip sync issues with 5.1 surround sound input on the Q90R (firmware v1066).

Specifically, I experience this on TV channels that are broadcast with 5.1 sound, but not on TV channels that are broadcast with only stereo sound.

This means that I can watch a show on one TV channel with the (stereo) sound and picture in perfect sync, and then simply change channel to another TV channel to experience a mismatch between the (surround) sound and picture. Switching back to the first TV channel, the (stereo) sound and picture is again in perfect sync. So lame

The lip sync issues are present using the Q90R built-in speakers as well as with a Sonos Amp -- however, again, only with 5.1 TV channels, which also means that I cannot use the options for adding a general delay on the sound/picture as that, while perhaps fixing the 5.1 TV channels, will simply shift the issue to the stereo TV channels.

@Samsung: Needless to say, having such issues on a flagship model is really bad.. What are the plans for fixing this (expectedly, through a firmware update to get the TV to process 5.1 sound input properly)?

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

m-oc — Sat, 08 Jun 2019 12:29:20 GMT

Are you sure you are on 1066? I've been checking for updates (manually) as well as have my Q90R set to auto updates and still only have 1065. I just checked now and it's not updating. I have the same issues with lip sync. I had the retailer out yesterday. We spent over an hour on it and couldn't resolve it. I have a Sonos Playbar but we also tried a Beam over HDMI ARC. Neither worked really and better.

I don't believe it to be an issue with Sonos but lots of the reports seem to be due to Samsung TVs and a Sonos device. As this sometimes occurs with the TV speakers too, then I don't think it is the sound bar.

They certainly need to have the video behind the sound, rather than ahead, so you an apply the delay and also have different delays for each input.

Presumably Samsung aren't reading these comments! Samsung???

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

WBB — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 13:38:16 GMT

Tag me as frustrated.

I just got my 82” Q90 last week, I’m using a Samsung HW-Q60R soundbar, huge lip sync issues with the cable box even using the tv built in speakers as stated above.

Firmware is 1065, no update available. My cable box is an Arris DCX3510 Cable DVR. I’m using HDMI ARC, I even tried multiple cables, nothing worked.

My 2 year old 55” Samsung synced perfectly.

I changed every audio setting in the cable box (I thought) and on the tv. Setting Game mode on the HDMI port connected to the cable box seemed to help but not resolve the issue. There are advanced game mode settings, but changing them didn’t seem to make a difference either.

I researched the DCX3510 and found a lower level audio and video menu that was available when it was in the standby mode. Simply power off the cable box, (putting it in standby) then press menu and navigate to advanced HDMI settings. I selected L-PCM mode and set the lip sync to auto. On the main setup menu (the one available when the box is powered on) I selected stereo.

That ‘so far’ seems to have worked. If you have an Arris cable box it may work for you.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

m-oc — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 14:14:26 GMT

I’m not familiar with Arris. Is this a UK system? The problem with PCM is that it is only basic stereo and not 5.1 for example. I also find that PCM works fine but 5.1 does not.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

WBB — Tue, 11 Jun 2019 22:52:03 GMT

I believe Arris is US based, our provider is Charter.

I think 5.1 can be supported by L-PCM if you are using an HDMI cable for the audio which I am.

On the cable box the lower level HDMI the audio options are: pass-through, auto, or L-PCM.

Neither pass-through nor auto syncs correctly.

After changing to L-PCM the main setup menu offers:

Audio output options: TV speakers, stereo, and advanced.

Compression levels: none, light, and heavy.

Stereo output: Mono, stereo, and matrix.

I have now selected advanced, heavy, and matrix and the lip sync is acceptable.

The matrix option I believe passes multiple audio channels, thus DD.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

m-oc — Tue, 02 Jul 2019 19:23:50 GMT

My TV software just updated for the first time since initial installation. Now on 1303. Early days, but I’d say the lip sync on Dolby Digital is improved.

Interesting, as Samsung sent out a representative yesterday and today I was informed there are no known issues with lip sync! So maybe they secretly improved the problem!

Has anyone else seen an improvement?

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

d00p — Tue, 02 Jul 2019 19:29:18 GMT

Yes, I experience the same after having upgraded to v.1303 -- i.e., definitely still lip sync issues with Dolby Digital (5.1) input, but some improvement over v.1066.

Consequently, I still have to go with stereo input only.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

chiefmegadeth — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 08:58:06 GMT

Im having same Lip sync issues connected to my Yamaha 5.1 system.

What is this seriously Samsung? I payed $4500au for this so called top of the line LED and it has lip sync issues when using Surround sound with Q90R in 5.1 it not even fixable right now.

Is there a ETA on a firmware fix for this? So bad. im almost ready to get a refund right now?

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

m-oc — Wed, 10 Jul 2019 09:06:46 GMT

Via a local repair company that came out to look at the issue at the request/cost of Samsung Support I received the following statement “Re our conversation earlier, Samsung have advised that they currently have no known issues with sound delay for your model of TV.”. The firmware did update last week on the same day that they made this statement. However, whilst I think the problem is not as bad, it still exists.

So I wouldn’t expect a fix any time soon, if ever.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

userjYtfoTda0t — Mon, 12 Aug 2019 04:06:36 GMT

My workaround consist of remote controlled (TosLink) swithes so I can bypass digital sound from all my external sources directly to my surround amplifier. Then I use delay settings in the amplifier to compensate the TV processing delay. (The extra delay on Dolby Digital sound does not seem to affect the TV's internal sources. Only HDMI-> in my case ToSLink.)

I have measured the exessive audio delay in the TV (QE55Q90R SW 1303.7) to 160ms (that is the sound is delayed with respect to the picture, so the user can not correct it by adding audio delay). I did the measurement by using a DVD that contains 1Hz sound "blipps" in both 2ch PCM and 2ch Dolby Digital and compared the delay before and after the TV (using a DA converter) using the DVD player analogue output as reference. The reference measurement gave a (bias) delay of 66ms for my test setup that shall be subtracted from the delay through the TV. Also note that the TV's video processing delay is correctly added by the TV for the PCM signal. The video processing delay might be specific to the SD (DVD) format and my personal settings but a comparison between the audio delay for DD compared to PCM can anyway be done.

See the dumps below from the wave editor below.

With the PCM sound I calculate that the TV adds (112-66=) 46ms (that I consider a correct compensation for the video processing)

The excessive delay for Dolby Digital is calculated as (272 - 112)= 160 ms.

Samsung: I would conclude that this is a known issue! (At least many users know about it.)

PCM trough TV (HDMI->ToSLink) bias to subtract = 66 msDD trough TV (HDMI->ToSLink) bias to subtract = 66 ms

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

JonG — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 14:59:12 GMT

Just want to add that I also get this issue (SkyQ HDMI set to DD) Get delay via the TV speakers or being output to my SONOS system.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

m-oc — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 15:49:04 GMT

I have a solution for the lip sync issue but it comes at a couple of costs.

I now have a Q90R sound bar as well as the Q90R TV. So you would think they would work perfectly together... The lip sync issue continues if you connect sources to the TV one connect and just use HDMI ARC between the soundbar and TV. However, if you connect the sources to the soundbar (there are only 2 more HDMI ports and 1 optical) and just use the HDMI ARC as before then the lip sync issue is resolved. This is for Dolby Digital too and DD+.

What are the “costs”? Well the first is the cost of the soundbar. It’s not cheap! I suspect that this solution may however work with other soundbars if they have enough HDMI inputs for your needs. The second is really annoying. When I turn the TV off with the TV remote, the soundbar also goes off, so far so good. However, when I turn on the TV, the soundbar does not switch on. I then have to use the soundbar remote just to switch it on. Also it doesn’t always then recognise the source until something is done on the soure, even if it was already on.

Interestingly/annoyingly, with the original configuration with the lip sync issues, the remote works fine for on and off! So currently it’s either lip sync or remote issues!

I have someone coming out to look at my set up later in the week. Maybe the on/off issue can be fixed. If not, it looks like just another problem from Samsung that they won’t fix.

The other point to note is that the Q90R soundbar isn’t the most asthetically pleasing device I’ve ever seen. The soundbar isn’t too bad but the sub is a big black box and the rear speakers are chunky. It does sound really good however.

Hope you’re reading this Samsung and can help your customers out? Please?

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

NickJ2 — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 16:50:35 GMT

When you say "lip-sync issues are resolved" I feel compelled to comment. Different people (and even the same person once sensitized) have vastly different awareness of lip-sync error. Some can ignore 100 ms while others are bothered by 2 or 3 ms error. Research at Stanford over 20 years ago confirmed lip-sync error makes us distrust the characters and the presentation in a similar way to how we feel when people don't make eye contact with us. But the evidence suggests that "we" - the viewers- are the ones not making eye contact as we subliminally look askanse to avoid the impossibility of sound "before" the event - the lip movement - that creates the sound. To REALLY correct lip-sync you need to be able to adjust an audio delay down to the ms while watching the video. Alchemy2, Felston and Primare have made products to do just that via a hand held remote. Most delay s/pdif and optical in 1 ms increments but Felston developed an HDMI model but by the time they had it the market was for HDMI 2.0 so they never introduced their HDMI 1.3 model but continue to sell their flagship DD740. But unfortunately with today's wide array of video formats audio sometimes arrives already delayed and no audio delay can fix that. By the way SONUS adds about 30 ms audio delay which isn't usually a problem but can be when there are other delays in a system.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

userjYtfoTda0t — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 19:32:31 GMT

I read a study (a long time ago) performed by EBU that concluded that usual limits when ordinary viewers get annoyed was with sound 60ms after or 40ms before the picture. They also concluded that this range decreased once the viewer got aware of the problem. I do believe that a bigger (relative) picture also makes us more sensitive. And as you say a "disconnected feeling" happens with less sync errors.
Anyway, the subject of this thread is the fact that our TV:s systematically adds a huge audio delay on dolby digital (and I believe DTS) sound that is input through HDMI. My measurement show a clear difference, about 160ms extra for DD2.0 compared to 2-ch PCM (Where the PCM audio compensation added by the TV is at least "good enough" to not be annoying.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

m-oc — Thu, 15 Aug 2019 20:23:54 GMT

It was an initial “feeling” after some initial testing. In fact after further testing I don’t believe the new software has made any difference. I was probably unlucky with the broadcast I initially tested with that it masked the delay. As you no doubt know, some broadcasts are more or less in sync than others.

In conclusion when the sources are connected to the one connect box and using DD the video remains ahead of the sound and cannot be compensated for. Samsung need to fix this.

Furhermore, when I connect the HDMI sources to the Q90R soundbar, lip sync is fixed. Proving that it is the Q90R TV at fault. However, in this configuration ARC Anynet+ is totally unworkable. So either way, Samsung’s 2 “premium” products neither work alone or together.

At the moment I can’t even get the Sky Q to come on the screen or soundbar at all and I just closed the door on the living room, switched the light off and am off to watch TV on my Sony upstairs.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

JonG — Sun, 18 Aug 2019 10:18:03 GMT

Got to say the support by Samsung here is dire. I'd have expected this to at least be acknowledged by someone at Samsung and to fire it up the chain as an issue to be fixed in a future update. I'm now tempted to return my set if this is an example of how they treat their flagship 4K TV customers...

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

cirion — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 15:03:55 GMT

Same here - the lack of offical response is dissapointing.

My setup includes a (many years ago) pricy A/V receiver, but which is limited to 1080p. However it is still great use for the audio part. This means that in case of higher resolution sources like e.g. FireTV (Netflix) I need to connect them to the TV directly and pass the audio via optical cable from TV to A/V receiver.

Now my Sat-Receiver has an optical output of its own, and with that I can very nicely see the audio lag that is introduced by the TV by toggling between the optical audio output from the TV and the Sat-Reciever. In case of SAT -> HDMI -> TV -> OPT -> A/V the audio is notceably delayed related to the picture although I have set the delay to 0msec. In case of SAT -> OPT -> A/V the audio is in sync. So my A/V receiver is definetely not the culprit here.

Sadly in case of the FireTV stick I have no other option than to go for the OPT out of the TV. And this is very annoying.

So Samsung: if you can sell TVs for >4000€, you can definetely fix this issue pronto! I am definetely not willing to spend another >1000€ on a new A/V receiver!

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

NickJ2 — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 15:43:43 GMT

Even if you were willing to spend 1000 Euro (or more) on a new AV receiver there is no way to correst it if audio is delayed. That would require a video delay. Unfortunately with HDMI 2.0's 8K data is too fast to even make such a device possible with the fastest (and most expensive) FPGA's today. It's barely possible for 4K but all the HDMI hype makes it economically impossible. What's so ridiculous is no human alive can see any difference in 1080 and 4K (and certainly 8K) at a normal viewing distance (say 8 feet on a 60" screen) but they both look better at 1 or 2 feet in stores. We have let the HDMI consortium create this situation and now we can't do aything about it. Your best bet is to use your SAT optical output and if you need some audio delay to get perfect lip-sync there are low cost devices to delay the s/pdif outputs in 1 ms steps via remote handsets. Some sound bars and even TV's can also delay sound but usually in huge steps like 10 or 20 ms. This probably means NOT using devices like the Firestick than have HDMI outputs only as well as streaming devices built in to your TV. Sorry.

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

cirion — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 17:12:17 GMT

Thanks for your response. If I invest in a new A/V I can connect all my 4K sources to the A/V and get rid of the delay which is obviously introduced by passing the audio through the Samsung TV (please look carefully at the audio connection I have described in above posting).

in a nutshell:

SAT -> HDMI -> TV -> OPT -> A/V ~80msec of aufdio delay

SAT -> OPT -> A/V no delay.

But as I wrote before: I am asking Samsung to remove the ridiculous delay in the TV. As you corectly mentioned once the audio is delayed too much you have lost because delaying the video is expensive.

I am absolutely not interested in buying any workaround hardware (even external HDMI audio splitters) when I have a high-end TV for >4000€ wich should process the audio correctly in the first place!

Re: Lip sync on Q90R with 5.1 input

NickJ2 — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 17:23:04 GMT

I would "doubt" that but I suppose it's possible. From our experience once HDMI has the audio all bets are off.