topic Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround in Audio & Video

HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Peejay84 — Sun, 13 Aug 2017 13:40:14 GMT

Hello!

I have been using MS650 soundbar with two R3 speakers for a full 5.0 surround configuration with UE65KS8000 tv.

Everything was fine until it updated to the 1129.1 firmware yesterday.

Now the volume on rear speakers is too low even with -6 on a soundbar and +6 on R3's set in the Multiroom app.

It's the same problem as previously addressed with HW-K650 soundbar with R speakers as rear surround (there is a huge thread about the issue here).

From what i see the volume on R3's doesn't scale linearly with the soundbar. Up to 45-50/100 volume R3's are a lot quieter than the soundbar and around 55/100 they match the output volume of the soundbar (tested with multiple surround test files) and then they suddenly become exponentially louder than the soundbar with evey step making a huge difference.

Problem is that 50+ volume is really loud, and it's impossible to watch most movies at those volumes.

It was like that pre update too but the "matching point" was at lower volume levels and you could just manually adjust R3's vs soundbar volume via Multiroom app and get a good surround sound field at lower volume.

Another thing about the 1129.1 firmware update. I have been told by a Samsung salesman that MS650 is getting a full DTS 5.1 support this year. I guess that was the point of the update (can't be sure since you are not giving us any changelogs sadly), because the system can now play DTS 5.1 with all channels being properly separated, but only via HDMI ARC connection. With Soundbar being connected through WiFi to KS8000 im only getting fake DTS surround.

Is that a technical limitation or simply a bug? Dolby 5.1 plays correctly via both WiFi and HDMI, but again the rears are very quiet.

Can any of you dear moderators pass this to the team that was working on a fix for K650+R speakers problem?

Thanks in advance!

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Newbeee — Tue, 12 Dec 2017 17:32:17 GMT

Hi - did you get this to work in the end?

I have already purchased the ms6500 and am looking to purchase 2xR1 for a 5.0 experience. But dont want to buy these if they will not work as expected.

The other option i have is to purchase the swa-9000s. Not sure which route to go down.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Peejay84 — Tue, 12 Dec 2017 17:51:35 GMT

Hello there!

It does work with radiant speakers and gives real multichannel experience with both Dolby and DTS formats.

Latest firmware for both radiants and soundbar fixed a sound level issue a little i think, but the volume on R3's still doesn't scale linearly with the soundbar. With +6 on radiants in multiroom app, the volume levels are equal at around 50/100. It's fine for most netfilx/amazon stuff, but for DTS content its usually too lound and i have to put soundbar lower in multiroom app.

Other than that it works great with WiFi connection. DTS 5.1 only works via HDMI, WiFi gives fake surround. That might be just bandwith limitation of Samsung's WiFi implementation. Not sure if it's the same with SWA-9000.

From what i see SWA-9000 speakers are a lot more user friendly, you can adjust their voulume or even turn them off with your remote. With radiants you have to do it via multiroom app. It's not really a problem for me, since i have an always on tablet standing on a shelf nearby.

You said in the other thread that you are using optical. From what i remember i got really low volume on R speakers when i connected it once via optical. But if you have 2017 tv, you should really use WiFi as it gives perfect lipsync. Sometimes i get lipsync issues with HDMI that can't be adjusted (picture goes before sound). Nothing terrible but visible to sensitive people..

I've never tried using SWA-9000 so i can't really be sure how they perform, or if there are any issues with them. But if everything is ok with them i say you go with SWA-9000 if you want to use whole set only for tv, but go with Radiant speakers if you want to group them with soundbar and listen to music like i do.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

darrenliu — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 05:32:07 GMT

I am now matching my MS650 with SWA-9000s (Surround Speakers). In terms of 9000s volume, I have to turn it to max +6, and it quite satisfies my hearing.

Before having Surround Speakers, I felt 2 channel output only from MS650 with DTS5.1 audio source. After I setup Surround speakers, I can hear actual 5.0 surround effect with DTS5.1 audio source. I don't understand this, but it doesn't matter to me.

Speak of Wifi can't give you actual DTS 5.0, maybe you need to check whether your TV support DTS5.1, or just DTS2.0. When I connected my HD player to TV via HDMI and TV to MS650+9000s via HDMI ARC, with DTS5.1 audio source, I can hear same sound from all speakers (front & rear) which I call them as fake surround, because dialogue speaking should not come out from rear speakers. This happens because my TV is DTS2.0 only.

When I connected my HD player (able to read DTS5.1) to TV via HDMI and HD player to MS650+9000s via optical cable, with DTS5.1 audio source, I can hear actual 5.0 surround sounds throughout my speakers, the sound effect is the same as Dolby Digital 5.1.

I think if your TV is DTS2.0 capability only, don't treat your TV as input to the soundbar.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Peejay84 — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 09:45:49 GMT

Hello!

My Ks8000 is DTS 5.1 capable according to specs, and I get real dts surround with HDMI Arc, it only outputs fake surround via WiFi,and only DTS. Wifi dolby works fine.

There's nothing about this in manual, and according to manual MS650 is still 2.0 DTS soundbar in EU.

Funny enough, on Canadian Samsung website it is listed as DTS 5.1 capable.

Honestly samsung user support for audio/video is horrible. There are no change logs or bug fixes posted anywhere on the net. Every firmware update is a lottery, you have no idea what you are actually updating to.

There's nothing on the whole internet about MS650 getting DTS 5.1 support, other than some early reviews stating that it will get dts 5.1 update.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

kirby2096 — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 13:24:26 GMT

HW-MS650 DTS 5.1 Support

An update has been released for soundbar series M550, MS650, MS6500, and MS750 models. With this update, the soundbars will have the following new features.

Ability to playback both Dolby and DTS contents in a true 5.1Ch surround sound
Ability to decode more information to create a more detailed virtual multi-dimensional sound for DTS contents.

This is taken from the US Support website for the HW-MS650 (updated on 08/15/17),and the latest firmware on the Support page for this soundbar is the same across the US and EU sites. The fact that information on this feature was hidden away, and that firmware update notes for Samsung soundbars are non-existant does show that Samsung's website team are doing a pretty poor job of keeping their customers informed.

I've just tried on my setup and indeed DTS 5.1 does not work over Wifi. I'm fine with using HDMI connection from the TV to the soundbar, but hopefully can Samsung bring us an update to fix this for those who prefer a wireless connection.

More important for me is that they add LPCM 5.1ch support to their soundbars, as I want to play compatible Nintendo Switch games in glorious surround sound when in docked mode.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Peejay84 — Thu, 04 Jan 2018 13:30:18 GMT

Oh wow thanks!
I was looking for some information about DTS support but didn't find anything.
As for WiFi DTS, I really wish they would update it as samsung WiFi connection gives perfect lipsync, no matter the source. You don't have to adjust anything.
With HDMI Arc sometimes I get picture before sound, which is weird and you can't adjust it via Ks8000 sound settings as there are no negative values there.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

darrenliu — Fri, 05 Jan 2018 06:08:05 GMT

Hi kirby2096,

Thanks for the info. I'm actually from Malaysia (Asia Region). Not sure if the update to DTS5.1 also applied to Asia Region? However, my MS650 really can play DTS5.1 with Optical cable.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

darrenliu — Mon, 15 Jan 2018 14:28:35 GMT

Hi Kirby2096,

Any idea which firmware version contains DTS5.1 update?

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

kirby2096 — Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:28:22 GMT

@darrenliu

Funnily enough DTS5.1 support was added in firmware ver. 1129.1, back when this very topic was created. Also confirmed at HW-MS650 topic on AVSforum Just to be clear, the firmware updates after ver. 1129.1 should have DTS5.1 support as well.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

knocker — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 21:34:22 GMT

Hi I have just bought an Mu6400 smart tv

ms650 soundbar and 2 Radiant 360 R1 speakers.

3.1 surround with juat R1's is ok but for 5.1 linking the ms650 and the 2 R1's the sound on the 2 R1's is so low is barely noticable unless you crank up really loud, whixh becomes unbareable. I am using optical as unable to set 5.1 over WIFI.

any advice

@Peejay84 wrote:
Hello there!

It does work with radiant speakers and gives real multichannel experience with both Dolby and DTS formats.
Latest firmware for both radiants and soundbar fixed a sound level issue a little i think, but the volume on R3's still doesn't scale linearly with the soundbar. With +6 on radiants in multiroom app, the volume levels are equal at around 50/100. It's fine for most netfilx/amazon stuff, but for DTS content its usually too lound and i have to put soundbar lower in multiroom app.
Other than that it works great with WiFi connection. DTS 5.1 only works via HDMI, WiFi gives fake surround. That might be just bandwith limitation of Samsung's WiFi implementation. Not sure if it's the same with SWA-9000.

From what i see SWA-9000 speakers are a lot more user friendly, you can adjust their voulume or even turn them off with your remote. With radiants you have to do it via multiroom app. It's not really a problem for me, since i have an always on tablet standing on a shelf nearby.

You said in the other thread that you are using optical. From what i remember i got really low volume on R speakers when i connected it once via optical. But if you have 2017 tv, you should really use WiFi as it gives perfect lipsync. Sometimes i get lipsync issues with HDMI that can't be adjusted (picture goes before sound). Nothing terrible but visible to sensitive people..

I've never tried using SWA-9000 so i can't really be sure how they perform, or if there are any issues with them. But if everything is ok with them i say you go with SWA-9000 if you want to use whole set only for tv, but go with Radiant speakers if you want to group them with soundbar and listen to music like i do.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Peejay84 — Tue, 23 Jan 2018 17:19:32 GMT

Hello!

Try using HDMI ARC connection. I think i've tried Optical once and rears were idd very low.

You can use this file to test https://www2.iis.fraunhofer.de/AAC/ChID-BLITS-EBU.mp4 .. Just play it from a pendrive via your TV. As i said earlier the volume doesn't scale linearly and my R'3 when put on +6 in multiroom app play about as loud as soundbar channels at volume of 50/100. If you put soundbar to -6 in multiroom app, they should be equal at around 30-35/100.

Also remember to set "Dolby" and Bitstream in your sound options in the tv. For somee reason samsung tv's won't change it automatically, so when you are playing DTS track, you also have to change to DTS in the sound settings.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Torque — Fri, 17 Aug 2018 13:03:15 GMT

Hi,

I know this is an old thread but being searching regarding DTS 5.1 on the MS650.

My setup is....

Samsung F8000 Hdmi-arc to MS650 with 9000s rear speakers. Firmware 1146.4 / 196R.

I watch Netflix and Now TV movies.

Yet all I can select is PCM. Any advice is much appreciated?

Thanks.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

darrenliu — Fri, 17 Aug 2018 14:53:54 GMT

If you have already ensured firmware for both TV and Soundbar updated, the issue will be the source from your Netflix or Now TV. Audio of the source must be stereo.
Also did you switch your Sound output at TV menu to soundbar?

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Peejay84 — Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:29:39 GMT

Hello!

Netflix and the rest of streaming services use Dolby. If your soundbar is connected to your TV through ARC, you need to set HDMI audio format to Bitstream and Audio Format to Dolby Digital in your sound settings. You have to do this WHILE THE MOVIE/SHOW is playing not in the Netflix menu, so the TV recives Dolby signal.

Bear in mind that every time you watch something with DTS track from your Bluray or NAS, you have to manually change to DTS in audio format (also DTS 5.1 only works through HDMI connection, it doesn't work with WiFi), and when you get back to Netflix you have to switch to Dolby etc.

F8000 is the older tv running Smarthub right? I have KS8000 with Tizen so your menu might be different and ARC connection might work different on it. For example all the new samsung TV's (QLEDs) can't output DTS through HDMI ARC and Optical, so you can only play Dolby (it has to be some kind of licensing issue).

Oh and sometimes Primevideo (amazon VOD service) bugs out for me, and in TV settings i see PCM, like you said (and im unable to change it), with sound being messed up. Restarting the movie usually solves the problem.

Never happend to me with Netflix though.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Torque — Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:40:09 GMT

Hi,

Thank you for the reply.

Firmware:
F8000 TV firmware 1135 most upto date.
MS650 firmware 1146.4 / 196R most upto date.

F8000 TV menu:
- > sound - > Speaker settings - > Speaker select = receiver

- > Sound - > Additional Settings - > Digital Audio Out = PCM all over options greyed.

5.0 surround: should it be only dialogue from centre, whilst the front /rear left/right provide effects?

Thanks.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Torque — Fri, 17 Aug 2018 16:58:19 GMT

Hiya,

Thank you for responding.

Not sure how I change the Hdmi-arc port to bitstream. I don't think it is an option on the F8000.

Yes the F8000 (2013) has smart hub. The last update stripped away the smart hub home page for a banner which holds apps which you pin to it (ie the main apps). I think Tizen is similar.

Haha, I am glad you said whilst movie is showing. I am streaming Netflix and under...
TV settings - > Sound - > Additional Settings - > Digital Audio Out = Dolby Digital can now be selected. Thanks 😀

Should the rear speakers be outputting dialogue? When I put my ears to the soundbar I can only hear dialogue from centre, and effects from the left/right.

Thanks.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Torque — Fri, 17 Aug 2018 18:06:31 GMT

Hi,

Also viewing tv...

Channel - BBC1 HD:
TV settings - > Sound - > Additional Settings - > Digital Audio Out = Dolby Digital can now be selected.

TV settings - > Sound - > Additional Settings - > Dolby Digital Comp = 'RF' the other option is 'Line', which should it be?

TV settings - > Broadcasting - > Audio Options - > Audio Format = HE-ACC 5.1 there are no other options.

Channel - Dave:
TV settings - > Sound - > Additional Settings - > Digital Audio Out = PCM is the only available option.

TV settings - > Broadcasting - > Audio Options - > Audio Format = MPEG there are no other options.

I assume this is down to the source?

Thanks.

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Peejay84 — Fri, 17 Aug 2018 18:27:42 GMT

Glad i could help

>Should the rear speakers be outputting dialogue? When I put my ears to the soundbar I can only hear dialogue from centre, and effects from the left/right.

Usually with surround mixes conversations of characters talking on screen will be played only from the center channel (sometimes a little left/right too), rear speakers are usually playing ambient sounds, music etc. or sounds that are positioned "behind the screen".

Sometimes you can hear voice from rears, for example when some powerful "psychic" character uses his alien voice

It all really depends on a movie/tv show. Some tv shows like The walking dead barely use rear channels, and some use them a lot.

This is a basic dolby channel test check:

https://www2.iis.fraunhofer.de/AAC/ChID-BLITS-EBU.mp4

I used it to adjust the volume on SWA9000 rears, because all the spoken commands are at the same sound level.

You can download it and play it from a pendrive on your tv. It's the easiest way to check if channels are properly separated.

Theres also a sound check on Netflix.

https://www.netflix.com/title/80018499

Re: HW-MS650 with two R3 speakers as rear surround

Peejay84 — Fri, 17 Aug 2018 18:34:30 GMT

Yeah it's down to the source. Like i said, when you play DTS file, you have to manually switch to DTS there, or you get a fake surround. Not sure if F8000 can play DTS through ARC though.

MS650 with SWA9000 does indeed play real 5.1 DTS even though it says 2.0 on the box. It recieved an update some time ago. If you plug it directly to a bluray, and pass the video to your TV it will play DTS5.1 properly

Not sure what Dolby DIgital Comp is on F8000, but quick googling says its a method of compression used (so looks like it's always bitstream). I think you should leave it as it is.

When you see TV settings - > Broadcasting - > Audio Options - > Audio Format = MPEG, it means it's not broadcasted in Dolby

Sometimes there are multiple tracks though, even in live tv. I see some stations here having mpeg as default, but theres a hidden Dolby track too, but you have to switch to it manually.